Using kelp fertilizer or coconut milk/water to produce keiki

[PaphLover]

Has anyone had success using this method? I have no keiki paste, but read a couple of threads mentioning it as a possibility and would like to try this.

Ray mentioned that certain kelp fertilizers have a lot of cytokinins in them. Same idea with the coconut milk/water.

Thanks for your knowledge!

[Ray]

I don't know a good answer for you, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

I have been considering making a "cloning gel" out of KelpMax and agar...

[naoki]

I think you want Coconut water (instead of milk). It is the liquid endosperm. Concentration of cytokinins are variable (depending on the age of the fruit). Some people say that the fresh one is better than the canned ones.

I tried spraying canned ones for a while, but I didn't see much difference (good or bad). But it is quite likely that the concentration of cytokinins was off. As with any hormones, response is usually concentration dependent, but non-linear, and you could see the opposite response if it is too high etc.

Ray, as you know, the ratio is important. If KelpMax works well for root, it won't work well for releasing the lateral buds from apical dominance.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by naoki

Ray, as you know, the ratio is important. If KelpMax works well for root, it won't work well for releasing the lateral buds from apical dominance.

True enough, Naoki, but KelpMax has such a wide array of chemicals in it - auxins, cytokinins, amino acids, vitamins, gibberellins, abscisic acid, brassinosteroids - that I thought it might be worth experimenting with...

[PaphLover]

Thanks for the info! And the correct spelling of cytokinins. So much to learn.

[PaphLover]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can soak sphagnum moss in the coconut water or kelp and attach that to a node on the spike and leave there to see if it would produce a keiki. Would this be something you might suggest to start?

[silken]

Originally Posted by PaphLover

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can soak sphagnum moss in the coconut water or kelp and attach that to a node on the spike and leave there to see if it would produce a keiki. Would this be something you might suggest to start?

It would be worth a try and nothing to lose really. I have read that coconut water was used in flasks at one time. I have used it on an ailing Cattleya and it shot up about 9 new little growths from the base where I had been applying it. In the end the plant still died, likely not enough roots or life to support the new growths. But it still did produce a real cluster of new growths where only 1 or 2 would have been normal.

[Guido]

In a scientific forum what you just stated would be considered at most a HYPOTHESIS. What I can not understand is how did you get 9 growth from the base of a cattleya pseudobulb when it usually has 1 or 2 dormant buds. I am curious because we could became rich with your discovery.

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 AM ----------

Based on my own experience and later logical conclusion I can assert to you that coconut water will only bring you a fungal outbreak. Coconut water is used in flasking which is a sterile environment no bacteria or fungus around. Your media has bacteria and fungus and adding coconut water which has sugars will be like feeding gasoline to a smoldering fire. I did not ask for advise like you and applied the coconut water to 5 orchids, now they are history. A college professor used to say either you pay for a college education or with life experience.

[silken]

Originally Posted by Guido

In a scientific forum what you just stated would be considered at most a HYPOTHESIS. What I can not understand is how did you get 9 growth from the base of a cattleya pseudobulb when it usually has 1 or 2 dormant buds. I am curious because we could became rich with your discovery.

---------- Post added at 04:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 AM ----------

Based on my own experience and later logical conclusion I can assert to you that coconut water will only bring you a fungal outbreak. Coconut water is used in flasking which is a sterile environment no bacteria or fungus around. Your media has bacteria and fungus and adding coconut water which has sugars will be like feeding gasoline to a smoldering fire. I did not ask for advise like you and applied the coconut water to 5 orchids, now they are history. A college professor used to say either you pay for a college education or with life experience.

I'm not calling my act of pouring coconut water on an ailing Cattleya in an attempt to revive it any kind of scientific experiment and therefor no hypothesis. And I have no scientific explanation for the 9 growths. But it did in fact do that. I likened it to there being some meristem tissue or similar that would cause it to happen and the presence of cytokinins in the coconut water. And I had no fungal outbreak or anything else dire happen at the time. I do always let my media dry out fairly well before watering which may have helped. I would never do this to a normal healthy plant and had nothing to lose with my ailing one, so it is what I did. Everyone needs to evaluate info found on the internet and acts at their own risk. It's the chance I took. I have also read that back in the day when kelp and other rooting hormones weren't easily accessible, people brought their bare root purchases home and soaked them in sugar water. they survived and grew roots.

[Guido]

"I have no scientific explanation for the 9 growths. But it did in fact do that. I likened it to there being some meristem tissue or similar that would cause it to happen and the presence of cytokinins in the coconut water." A cattleya has 1 or 2 dormant buds which can only sprout 1 plantlet per dormant bud. For 1 or 2 dormant buds to be able to produce more you have to dissect the bud from the plant, divide it, sterilize the cuts, place them in a sterile petri dish/flask, add appropriate growth medium, provide movement, heat and light. So as you see is very complicated to get more than 1 plantlet per dormant bud plus you are not assured success with your trial. That is why vegetative cloning is so expensive and it takes a long time for the cells to switch to protocorns. Therefore my interest in your experiment and the possibility to make lots of money with your new protocol.
Regarding the hormone cytokinin, it can only last a short time in the media and this hormone needs a medium to get inside the plant tissue to turn on the vegetative growth. Coconut water is effective in a sterile environment like a sterile sealed flask because there are no bacterias or fungus to break it down and the plantlets can use it.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

Originally Posted by silken

I had no fungal outbreak or anything else dire happen at the time. I do always let my media dry out fairly well before watering which may have helped.

This is my last comment about this post and it is aimed to the people who have no knowledge and need help with their orchid. Drying up any media for any length of time will not eliminate bacteria or fungus. Bacteria & fungus have the capacity to go dormant when conditions are not propitious to them. They can be dormant for very long periods of time. That is why all living organisms get sick with bacterias, virus & fungus. That is why Monsanto, Bayer & other chemical co. make a killing selling antibacterials, virucide & fungicide. Repeat business. So, keep an eye on your orchids and at the first sign of trouble identify the enemy and combat it with the appropriate chemical plus do not forget to read and follow the instructions of the medication. Guido