Operation Vanda Rescue - Page 2 - Orchid Board

Ocelaris · #11 04-14-2008, 07:58 PM

here are some pictures of my little ones to give you an idea what I'm talking about. Basically everything that is "root" or stem (even if if "looks" dead) needs to get soaked heartily every day. You don't have to keep it in a glass or plastic pot, but it makes it easier to soak all the roots. You may need a bit pot/vase, but it's worth it. Lots of people on here have had a lot of success this way.

justatypn · #12 04-14-2008, 09:55 PM

Hey Aaron sounds like you have found some good information. I knew someone would be able to help you with your vanda.

Take a little stroll to the Welcome Thread "Break the Ice" and introduce yourself, so glad you joined the neighborhood.

AaronM · #13 04-15-2008, 04:26 PM

Thank you all for your imput and best wishes. Per another string that I was reading, I trimmed the dead lower portions away (and so that any of you currently shaking your head know, when I say dead I mean I am glad I never smoked around this orchid because I could have burned down the whole house) until I got near the still living stem up near the leaves. I then trimmed off the bottom inch or so of "bark" and powered the bare end with rooting hormone. I then wired the remaining portion into a basket stuffed with sphagnum moss soaked in a light solution of Superthrive. I have cut back on the light and keep the humidifier running both for humidity and air flow. I will not apply any fertilizer until new roots appear and are ready. I will soak the basket every couple of days per the suggestion of Oscelaris above.
Thank you all so much for your suggestions. Any further advice would be welcome as it might help me or anyone else who needs this information later.
Oh, and for any of you who thought it looked bad before, the picture below shows what it looks like as of 4/14/08.

AaronM · #14 04-15-2008, 04:33 PM

Here's that photo.

bitis78 · #15 04-15-2008, 08:57 PM

I'm anxious to see the outcome! Good luck - wishing you all the best!

Ocelaris · #16 04-15-2008, 09:44 PM

I would strongly suggest against sphagnum moss. Vanda roots need to air out completely. They need to be drenched, or dry, never inbetween. If you're serious about saving it, I would not wait days between soakings, Daily if not 2x a day is all that is going to save it.

I know you've already cut off some, but for those coming in behind reading this. I want to state my sincere objection to that. When a plant is weak, the LAST thing you need to do is take off ANY material from it. Nothing should bother it, as unsightly as it seems. Pruning is only for healthy plants in a growth phase.

Rooting hormone may help, but I think it's a cop out for proper care. No offense, but people turn to "miracle" drugs like pills to cure neurosis, and amazingly they never work. Go back to the basics.

You can dose superthrive or whatever you want, but you SHOULD be soaking it EVERY day to the point that anything you put on it, would need reapplication daily. Do not leave it in a moist rotting environment, Vandas do NOT like that.

You need to give it fertilizer every watering, even if sparingly. Plants without any medium count on some fertilizer in their water supply. This is not like a tomato or regular vascular plant with soil to balance the nutrients. If it has no nutrients, it will not produce roots! Roots come from NPK + Trace elements... You need to provide those nutrients or you will never see roots. Superthrive or any snake oil add on is not going to replace the basic requirements of Sun + H2O + NPK = Plant Biomass.

What "appears" as dead, is often times not. I don't know your particular situation, but I have something to show that will make my point. A lot of people will shoot off the hip suggestions, but I'd like to posit this plant as my argument for the above statements.

I bought a Vanda Bensonii about a month or two ago, sight unseen. It came in a very dilapidated state, it may be 20 years old, but it had no good roots, and looked to have 8" worth of dead stalk. By soaking once a day in a 250-350ppm MSU fertilizer solution, giving it ~1500 lumens, and 60% humidity, it has started a new leaf at a rapid pace, and just recently it has started brand new wonderful looking roots. Ok, it's just a start, but this thing has turned the corner. The other two vandas I got at the same time have probably made 10+ new thick chunky roots each, it just goes to show how long a sick/weak plant takes to recuperate. You may say that "those roots look fine!" But to me, from my experience, those are NOT roots, but scabs of roots that once were. Last picture is of a different Vanda, and a REAL root, which I have yet to receive a plant with a decent root... And they're not shriveling or disappearing with age. I just think a lot of people just plain do a poor job of growing these plants, and the plants are just so easy to grow, they deal with the poor conditions and thrive anyways. BTW, that last pictured root, is now like 8" longer 2 months later...

Our knowledge of what is alive or not is very poor compared to the Vanda's knowledge. Once it has new roots established, sure, trim whatever you want, but until a plant is reestablished, you're only shocking and damaging the plant by doing anything but putting it in the right conditions. My $.02 (btw it's "Ocelaris" no OSELURERUS)

AaronM · #17 04-15-2008, 11:50 PM

Thanks Ocelaris,
I will remove the sphagnum moss and try soaking daily. Is there a particular of N-P-K that you would recommend or should I just keep it balance?
For the record, I had already trimmed off the dead portions (and they were most certainly dead and had been for a long time) when I read your posting about the soaking technique.
I just hope this does not turn out to be one of those lessons that I end up learning the hard way.
Out of curiosity, how would I have soaked the whole plant since it would not have sat inside anything smaller than a five gallon bucket? Even that would have been a tight fit.
One last thing. I have two vandas (used to be one plant) that are bare root outside. Should I add a lite dose of fertilizer to their misting can as well?
Thanks for all the help.
AaronM

justatypn · #18 04-16-2008, 12:18 AM

Ocelaris your knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated and sharing this with our members

I work with Aaron and saw the portion that he cut off. It reminded me of a dead branch on an oak tree. There most definitely would not have been any saving of this portion much less seeing a root appear. If you take a part of a stalk or branch and bend it if it is dead dead it will snap and break, which is what his would have done if he did not use a cutting tool of sorts. This portion I saw had no bend-ability which if it did would mean a bit of life left. The remaining section he stated to me was not totally dead or alive so I am hoping that with this section a possible root will appear. He is determined to do what he has to do to bring this vanda back and am hoping the results will be as awesome as yours. Great job you have done on your's. Thanks again for sharing with us all.

Ocelaris · #19 04-16-2008, 01:55 PM

The two books that I own on Vandas; Vandas, by Martin Motes, and Vandas and Ascocendas by David L. Grove, both share the philosophy that you need to thourghly wet the roots beyond simple misting. i.e. a soaking bath, or a good 5-10 minute wash down with a sprayer. The phrase is "until the green shows through" Like pebble trays in a home, misting with a hand mister doesn't do much if anything.

I don't know florida's water hardness, but if it is hard, then you might consider getting some RO or Distilled, and using that for part of your mix.

Vandas are heavy feeders, but they dont' like hard water, so you have to temper your fertilizer depending on whether they are in an active growth phase or relatively dormant. If you just mist your plants daily, then maybe supplement that with every few days a soak for an hour in RO/Distilled + weak NPK. It's not the army, and I don't want to sound forceful, although regrettably I am sure it comes out that way. Soft water + weak fertilizer soaks make a remarkable difference. I have found that 1 gallon of RO and 1 tsp of MSU (a generic 13/3/15 (NPK ratio) + trace elements) fertilizer is the maximum which my plants like, that comes out to about 250ppm EC (Electrical conductivity), PPM, whatever, something fairly soft and weak. under 300ppm IMO has done better with my plants, which aren't under strong light, maybe more light means they need more fertilizer, but I have had best luck with ~200-300ppm after adding this fert.

Yes, use a 5 gallon bucket if need be, toss it in there for a half an hour a day and pull it out and put it back up in some mottled sunlight. You can reuse the water for a week or two if you are mixing your tap with RO/Distilled to bring the hardness levels down. In Thailand/Vietnam, where they have very soft water, they do very well. Here in New York, the water comes from the mountains, which are so old all of the sedimentary rocks which usually contribute to the hardness have more or less dissolved. So you have a very soft water coming into NYC, ironically in such a big city, the water coming from the tap is astoundingly good (and by good I only mean low in dissolved minerals).

Check out the "Glass Vase" thread in this forum, although it seems a bit insane, the method works very well, keeping the humidity throughout the day up, and makes it easy to soak the plants. These aren't my ideas, just reiterating what I have read on here and have had success with. It's different obviously if you're outside, but indoors, we do quite well this way.

aquanut415 · #20 04-16-2008, 02:31 PM

Ocelaris - you gotta try soilmost for your vandas. keeps them looking great, reduced need to water, and mine are not in a greenhouse or vivarium.