Aquascaper turned Orchid Keeper has Questions - Orchid Board

GravesSpeaks · #1 01-02-2022, 10:34 AM

Hello all!

I come from an aquascaping background, which basically means technology is king and pushing your plants to the limit is normal. I also have quite an extensive tropical plant collection. I like new challenges, so I decided to turn a 50 gallon bowfront tank into an "orchid tank" (orchidarium? I am not sure how gauche the word is in the community after reading the stickied post.) It is 36L 16D 20H.

Carter and Holmes is only a 45 minute drive from me and so I got to experience of a lifetime and quickly spent over $200 on miniature plants...before anything was set up. So, I could really use some expert help understanding some of the things I learned there.

I have ordered the following to arrive this week:
1. A Mistking starter kit
2. 5lb Cork flats and rounds for a custom background
3. 7 gallons of the NEHerp V2 vivarium substrate. To achieve 3" of substrate depth in the bottom.

I also plan to use these computer fans, which are what I use in my Ikea greenhouses. Fans They are in a set of 2, but now I am worried they will be too strong to run 24/7?

My Questions:
1. I have a lot of high quality LED lights from my aquascapes, but I was told at Carter and Holmes that they would probably be too strong for my new babes. They recommended 1 bright white and 1 warm white T-8 florescent, to not only give me a good light range for the orchids I place at different levels in the tank, but would also help me with my heat differential from day to night. Heat difference is a major area of concern for me because it is not something I have had to worry about before - consistency was! I see y'all using LEDs on the board and don't have it in my budget to buy the fluorescents yet...so if I use LEDs in the meantime what would y'all recommend for to achieve heat difference from day to night?

2. I also want to be able to track my humidity and temperature throughout the day and keep the data so I can see changes in my home throughout the year. Is there a thermometer/hygrometer with a phone app y'all recommend?

3. Am I overthinking/underthinking the substrate? All of my orchids (with the exception of a jewel orchid I got) will be grown epiphytically. I also want to grow ferns/mosses/other plants to achieve a beautiful, natural scene. My research says that this substrate will dry quickly and also contains charcoal, which should help prevent mold growth. I am inclined not to have a false bottom or drainage layer, as I understand it does not actually prevent saturation and really only limits the growing space in a vivarium. My understanding is it is better to just have a proper balance of airflow and misting. Am I correct?

Guys, I am so excited/scared. I wish I hadn't gone hog-wild on plants before I had everything set up, but there you go. It is hard for me to ask for anything without giving something in return, but I would appreciate any help you could give!

Shadeflower · #2 01-02-2022, 11:23 AM

you really have jumped into the deep end if you ask me.
Mini's have very thin roots and are more fragile.

Can't help with point 3, you already have experience with airflow and humidity which will help.

2. Govee thermometer, sold on amazon. I got the bluetooth connected one. They also sell a more expensive wireless one that can be checked from anywhere, not just at home. It tracks temperatures and humidity on a graph to see what goes on every 24 hours.

1. most T-8 lights use about 20 watts. So If they recommend 2x 20watt fluorescents you need roughly 10-15 watts of led x 2 to replace that.

But although it will be 30 watts of led's they need to be spaced fairly far apart to cover roughly the same area that 2 x fluorescents would cover so it's not just good enough to get a 30 watt led to replace the fluorescents. They are right that if it is one small high output led then the light will be more concentrated in a smaller illumination area.
I basically use 5 watts for my phals and 10 watts for my Cattleya's and then just use more, the more area I need to fill.

So how strong are your led's(ideally consumption in watts)? Can they be dimmed at all?
Even if they are too strong they can be used. Light diminishes the further away it is. So If you place a light strong enough at 1 foot above the plants if you get a light that is 10x stronger, ie a 100 watt led then placing it 3 foot above the plants should be far enough to reduce the light enough. But this would waste electricity and not really worth doing. But it can be done.

estación seca · #3 01-02-2022, 12:54 PM

Welcome to the Orchid Board! I would very much like to visit C&H. I have many nice plants I bought from them.

You've bitten off too big a bite. Orchids grow very differently than other plants.

My suggestion would be first, for some months, learn to grow orchids in a bare, undecorated terrarium, sitting on the bottom in pots, before you try to create a detailed orchidarium.

Put down a layer of whatever you like. Set the plants in their pots on top of it. Or set the pots on the glass. Use your misting and ventilation systems and the lights of your choice.

Then you will have some idea how orchids grow. You will have learned how they respond to too much light, or not enough. If you have problems it will be very easy to pull out one or more plants and examine them closely. You will be able to put the ones that want more light up on stands to move them closer to the light.

I think one fan is enough for that tank. Any of your LEDs will be fine; you can raise or lower them to deliver less or more light. MistKing is an excellent system.

While you are learning to grow orchids you can peruse the Terrarium Gardening forum here to see what others have done. From the left yellow menu choose Forums.

Finally, and very important... which plants do you have? We can offer advice about them.

GravesSpeaks · #4 01-02-2022, 03:20 PM

Shadeflower, thank you! I will order a Govee today. Will this one be sufficient/accurate enough?

The Lights
I have a lot of LEDs to choose from! Most are dimmable and can be set with a remote, but I have to find the remotes since most of us waterpeople like as much light as we can get out of these suckers.
In my stack of lights not being used I have:

2 Finnex Planted+

36": 72 x 7000k, 36 x WRGB LEDs
36" x 3.35" x 78"
36 Watts
AC110-240V

1 18" Current USA Satellite Plus Pro 4010 18-24IN

14 White LEDs /6 RGB LEDs (14-6500K/6-RGBW, 20 LEDs total)
20 Watts/12V
Dimensions: 16.8” x 3.5” x 0.44”

1 22" old Aqueon florescent hood with some kinda bright white 15w t-8 in it. I have 2 technically, but i'd need to get a new bulb for the other.

I also have several 48" lights in my garage. An old Fluval 2.0 another Finnex Planted+...probably some other things too. We like equipment.

I am mostly concerned that none of the LEDs will really help me at all with adding HEAT. The Aqueon florescent will, but I don't know what those bulbs are. Things from Aqueon are trash, usually. Do I need to put a heater in my grow room during the day to help? I do have a humidifier to counter balance it.

The Plants
Let me preface this by restating that I do not plan for ANY of my orchids to be planted in substrate. They will remain in their pots suspended by hook at different levels until I find the optimum height/light per plant. I really really don't like to ever move epiphytes, if I can help it! Especially since I am not injecting CO2 to help with rooting (yet...) They are all currently living in an Ikea cabinet turned greenhouse for the time being under a single 24" Monios-L T-8 about 12" away and getting misted by hand 2x a day. Let me know if you want to see pics!

Here are the plants I bought from C&H.

1. Epidendrum porpax, rooted in a tree fern pot

This one is already showing signs of drying and out, and is not happy with me.

2. Laeliocatanthe Newberry Ice and Fire 'Summer Song' x Lc. Kiritsubo 'Southern Stars'
3. Tolumnia Bridget Uzar 'Raspberry Ruffles' x Rodrumnia Newberry Tiny Dancers 'Little Miss'
4. Dendrobium Chocolate Chip - currently flowering
5. Neofinetia falcata 'Newberry Blush' x Neofinetia falcata 'Bubbleyum'
6. Ascocentrum miniatum
7. Bulbophyllum Crown Points (rothschildianum 'A-Dori-Bil' FCC/AOC x Bulbophyllum frostii
8. Pluerothallis tribuloides
9. Oncidium Tsiku Marguerite 'HOF #1' - Currently flowering.

I also have an unknown species of mini Dendrobium and two small small unknown Phalaenopsis.

I can already tell that these guys are not staying wet enough, even though they are in a greenhouse that doesn't go under 60% humidity.

My solution - put them in the bare tank with a mini humidifier and one of my Finnex lights, sound good?

Shadeflower · #5 01-02-2022, 03:43 PM

get this one https://www.amazon.com/Govee-Tempera...7Y36FWTT&psc=1

they are pretty accurate, for the price well worth it

For temps you could use a remptile heat mat to heat the tank. Something like a 20 watt heat mat should do it. Hook it up to the light timer and it will come on during the day. Be careful though things close to the mat will have very low humidity. A fan helps disperse the humidity but it will always be dry whwere the heat mat is.

ps the 18" Current USA Satellite Plus Pro 4010 18-24IN sounds exactly like what you need.

GravesSpeaks · #6 01-02-2022, 04:07 PM

Shadeflower,

Oof! That is so weak, really? Wow...this is so different! BTW, I just found a 36" Current USA...it may not be the exact same model. Should I stick with the 18" version?

estación seca · #7 01-02-2022, 05:45 PM

Quote:

1. Epidendrum porpax, rooted in a tree fern pot. This one is already showing signs of drying and out, and is not happy with me.
2. Laeliocatanthe Newberry Ice and Fire 'Summer Song' x Lc. Kiritsubo 'Southern Stars'
3. Tolumnia Bridget Uzar 'Raspberry Ruffles' x Rodrumnia Newberry Tiny Dancers 'Little Miss'
4. Dendrobium Chocolate Chip - currently flowering
5. Neofinetia falcata 'Newberry Blush' x Neofinetia falcata 'Bubbleyum'
6. Ascocentrum miniatum
7. Bulbophyllum Crown Points (rothschildianum 'A-Dori-Bil' FCC/AOC x Bulbophyllum frostii
8. Pluerothallis tribuloides
9. Oncidium Tsiku Marguerite 'HOF #1' - Currently flowering.
I also have an unknown species of mini Dendrobium and two small small unknown Phalaenopsis.

You have plants of differing cultural requirements. Some need very pure water with low fertilizer concentrations, others tolerate water with much more dissolved salts, and some prefer more fertilizer than others.

In general misting doesn't work for watering orchids unless in a tightly closed space. They need to be drenched.

Epi porpax likes to be always moist, with very pure water. Misting isn't enough. It's a good choice for terrariums. Get this one very wet every day in pure water. Before you put it into your habitat you could soak it in a dish of water for a few hours each day.

The Laeliocatanthe Newberry Ice cross will probably get too big for your terrarium. These do better with 60% humidity rather than higher. They prefer much higher light than you will be able to provide unless you burn some of the other plants. Consider growing this one on a windowsill rather than in your terrarium. Cattleya alliance plants easily tolerate water with more dissolved salts.

Tolumnias need distinct wetting then drying out each day. If kept continually wet, like in a high-humidity terrarium with daily misting, they often rot. They need higher air circulation and higher light than most orchids grown in terrariums. They don't mind most tap water.

Dendrobium Chocolate Chip should do well. It might get bigger than you expect.

Ascocentrum miniatum should do well. Ascos tolerate tap water and prefer a lot more fertilizer than most orchids.

Neofinetia falcata may do well but it doesn't like being cool and wet. So the temperatures you run your terrarium will matter.

Bulbophyllum like being wet and don't care about water purity. The one you chose likes being warm.

Pleurothallis tribuloides should do well. It likes very pure water and tiny amounts of fertilizer.

Oncidium Tsiku Marguerite should do well so long as the roots get plenty of air. It may get bigger than you think.

mini Dendrobiums should be fine. They prefer warmer rather than cooler temperatures.

small unknown Phalaenopsis generally prefer warmer rather than cooler temperatures. You need to be careful in a high-humidity terrarium not to let water stand in the crown of Phals. In habitat they grow sideways so water drains out.

Dusty Ol' Man · #8 01-02-2022, 06:40 PM

That is a huge step for a beginner orchid grower. I've been growing for some time and won't take on that wade a variety. Do yourself a favor. Go to the American Orchid Society website and get the culture sheets for each of you Orchid types. Read, read, read! And continue asking questions here. We have several terrarium gardeners.

GravesSpeaks · #9 01-02-2022, 06:49 PM

Yes! I would really help if I could nail down exactly what parameters I am aiming for. C&H said I should keep my range of RH between 55% and no higher than 80%. But I am not sure what heat range I need to aim for. I need at least a 10 degree difference from day to night, correct? Would the range of 75f at night at 85f during the day be a good range to go for?

Water
So, originally I planned on using water from my scapes in the 5g buckets the Mistking will use, but C&H said that dechlorinated tap water would probably work fine. Do you disagree?

1. Laeliocatanthe Newberry Ice cross - I forgot to mention that I told them I wasn't going to keep that one in the tank! Thank you for reminding me. That one is going on a sill, so that I can track growth differences from inside and outside the tank.

2. Epi porpax - Do you think if I gave him his own dedicated spray nozzle instead of a misting nozzle that would work for him? I will probably place him higher up.

3. Tolumnias - So, all the plants will be bare root, with only a couple with some additional sphagnum moss for additional dampness. I still need to parse out my timings for the Mistking. I was thinking of starting with 6 8-second sprays per day (another person I saw did 10 8-second sprays, but my usual instinct is too lean on too dry as opposed to too wet until I get a good feeling for the plants. With the Tolumnias, should I also add a 2 minute soaking session in the evening? Maybe also placing this one close to a fan will assist it drying out during the day? Is that a solution?

4. Dendrobium Chocolate Chip is my favorite.

I intend to place him in a centerpiece area, probably somewhere in the middle. I won't mind him getting bigger.

5. Neofinetia falcata - What temp should I strive for???

6. The Bulbophyllum - Sounds like close to a nozzle and closer to a light for warmth, yes? Or....is that silly since I am using LEDs at the moment? How do you heat your tanks or do you?

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------

By the way, I wasn't planning on doing any fertilizing until the spring, as with my houseplants. Is that not a good idea for orchids and they should be getting regular consistent fertilizing, as with scapes? I do intend to fertilize all of them individually, not to add ferts to the water.

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

I was reaaaaally hoping I would have a couple months to learn things before I needed to add ferts!

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------

Dusty - Yes, sir!

estación seca · #10 01-02-2022, 10:33 PM

A 10 degree F / 4.5c temperature variance is nice but not necessary. Most will do well with a smaller variance. Lots of people don't worry about it at all and their plants do well.

It doesn't matter how the Epi gets wet, just that it does. I'm more worried about it right now when you need to hand water.

As long as the Tolumnia becomes completely dry between waterings it should be OK. Once a day watering in high humidity is fine. I have them go more days between waterings when temperatures are cooler and humidity is high. In the Caribbean, where they originate, there may be many dry weeks in the winter, though humidity remains high. But if the roots never dry to white there will probably be trouble. I would put it closest to the fan.

I've never grown a Neo in a terrarium. They come from a warm to hot summer monsoon climate with a very cool, drier and brighter winter (because the deciduous trees on which Neos grow drop their leaves.) Mine grow in a sunroom that is much cooler at night in winter than in summer, but gets quite warm most winter days. I'll leave it to the Neo experts about how they grow being at relatively the same temperature and getting about the same water all year long. My first thought is it would be easier to grow next to the Laeliocatanthe on the windowsill.

The Bulbo will grow so long as it's wet. The higher the temperatures the better it will grow. But the Pleuro. tribulus doesn't like being hot.

If it's warm enough for any of the plants to grow, those will do better with fertilizer. It's not a big deal the way it is with planted tanks. Most orchids do well with small amounts of fertilizer on a regular basis during their growing season. Some do better with more than others. Most cloud forest species, like your Pleuro, should have more dilute fertilizer than the others.

Do some reading about fertilizing orchids in the extensive Free Information section at the First Rays Web site. The proprietor posts here with username Ray.

Also - how far north do you live? A lot of people north of about 35 -40 degrees have trouble flowering Cattleyas without supplemental winter light on the windowsill. Your plant isn't flowering size yet so there's plenty of time to think about this.