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  #1  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:34 PM
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Default species and species sibling cross

Hi all. I was thinking about orchid species ----- the word "species". If an orchid is a particular species, and if siblings from that species are crossed, then will the tags/labels of the resulting plants from the cross be retained?

I'm thinking that - in the wild (or in the lab) -- two plants of same species are crossed to produce new plants --- then the tag of the offspring can be same as the parents, right? Or wrong? It's ok if 'wrong'. Just trying to find out how all this works.

I have seen labels for species plants that have a 'x sib' next to the name ----- which certainly indicates what was done, which is nice. But trying to find out if that 'x sib' is critically important. And what happens if the 'x sib' is excluded? I'm happy to keep it included

Last edited by SouthPark; 06-29-2019 at 09:38 PM..
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:11 AM
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I could be short or completely wrong but I believe "x sibling" is mostly for the benefit of breeders.

Sometimes you might see, "species A "1" x species A "5" for the same reason.

They are all Specie A.

Other collectors may have other reasons for acquiring such labeled plants. Perhaps they are looking for specific traits of the parents. Especially if you collect a specific species or hybrids.

Others may be by to contradict me.
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Old 06-30-2019, 08:22 AM
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No contradiction, just expansion.

There are three routes for sexual reproduction, an "outcross", where the parents are the same species but from different populations, a "sibling cross" where both of the parents were from the same population brought about by a prior cross, or "selfing" where the pollinia from a plant is placed on a flower on the same plant.

In all cases, if the parents were the same species, so are the offspring, just with different approaches to the genetic distribution (hence the interest to breeders).

The plural and singular of the word is "species".
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Old 06-30-2019, 02:01 PM
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Thanks very much Anon and Ray for writing and sharing those details. Genuinely and greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-30-2019, 02:23 PM
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For the sake of clarity, a slight elaboration of what Ray wrote:

"There are three routes for sexual reproduction for a cross to still be a species ......"

Just thought it best to mention as crossing two different species would still be a form of sexual reproduction, but the offspring would now be hybrids, not a species.
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Old 07-01-2019, 08:11 AM
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...and taking this farther:

If two identical hybrids are crossed, the same three sexual approaches apply, and the progeny are still that hybrid.

If two different species, two different hybrids, or a species and a hybrid are crossed, everything - by default - is an outcross, so the terminology is not even used.
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
...and taking this farther:

If two identical hybrids are crossed, the same three sexual approaches apply, and the progeny are still that hybrid.
You're right about the hybrid - grex name - is maintained in the progeny. I've been thinking about mutation - and whether mutation are always still going to be placed under the same grex name. Maybe it is. I don't know a great deal about DNA workings. But wonder if any degree of mutation still makes a hybrid plant still fall under the same grex.

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Old 07-01-2019, 09:40 AM
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When it comes to mutations, yes it's the same grex, and I believe the cleanest way to handle it is through the cultivar name. If the mutation breeds true, then I suppose it could be assigned as a variety...
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Old 07-01-2019, 03:08 PM
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In hybrids, mutations are normally given a different clonal name (varieties only apply to species). Since clonal names are not registered (unless the plant earns an AOS/RHS/other society award), this is not scientifically sound system.

To go back to the original question, in a species the difference between outcross, sib cross & selfing is irrelevant, unless some unique color forms or varieties were used - and identified on the plant label.

For example:
  • It takes 2 true albas, to produce 100% albas.
  • Alba x tipo produces all tipo, allbeit with 50% alba genes. This is a stepping stone in line breeding better albas.
  • In some cases, forma alba (= white) x forma flava (= yellow) will produce all tipo, when the recessive alba is incompatible with the recessive flava. These plants will be genetically useful towards producing albas or flavas in the next generation.
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