hypothetical cross - Orchid Board

tmoney · #1 03-11-2021, 12:28 PM

hi people

so, a question. suppose I wanted to cross these 2 phals, which I do, btw. which one would ideally be the momma, and which the papa?

realizing they are both, arguably, phals...to me these 2 plants would make a ready hybrid, based on several factors. but i guess really, if i wanted the larger flower of the mini mark, would I use that as the mother? perhaps even more specifically, which traits are commonly passed down by which parents in the orchid group? thanks for any input!

ive also put a pic of a pod that I have developing between my girlfriends 2 older orchids. hopefully it keeps going!

oh, and it’s a mini mark, and a “doritis” (I guess phal), braceana...

PaphMadMan · #2 03-11-2021, 01:31 PM

In this case, the recommendation for which to use as mom and pop is easy. Mini Mark has only been successfully used as a parent of a registered cross 9 times since 1992, and never as the pollen parent. Given the popularity and desirability of Mini Mark that probably indicates limited fertility and only as a seed parent. Phal taenialis/Doritis/Kingidium braceana has been a successful parent more times, and as both seed and pollen parent, paired with a fair variety of types.

It is also advisable to make the cross both ways if you have the opportunity, or simply choose the stronger plant as the one to go through the stress of carrying the pod, if you have those options.

In a more general sense, the theoretical influence of the seed parent may be greater in terms of temperature and light preferences, general vigor, and distribution of green and yellow pigments, because the seed parent provides mitochondria and chloroplasts. Arguments for any other differences in influence tend to be anecdotal, not data driven.

But, in this case it does appear that Mini Mark may simply be a bad bet as a pollen parent.

tmoney · #3 03-11-2021, 02:05 PM

oh man, thanks for the excellent, pointed reply. so, it looks like I shouldn’t get my hope up, huh?!

also, i suppose it reinforces my intuition to use the mini mark as the intended mom. but dang, where do you get information like that? what makes the mini mark so difficult to cross? or is it a case of just not a lot of attempts? is there a percent success rate to compare to?

i suppose it doesn’t matter, cause if both of these do go to flower I’m gonna give it a shot! hahahah

the mm was just reported last week, and has since shown really good signs of being happier. the braceana has done nothing but get better looking since getting it, so I’m happy that it survived the shipping and transition so far. fingers crossed, pun intended.

appreciate any and all more input!

edit, read something wrong

Mr.Fakename · #4 03-11-2021, 02:43 PM

Don't get your hopes too high until you have actual seeds

Some Phal primary hybrids have been made both ways - A x B and B x A - and the mitochondria and chloroplasts thing really shows.

Since braceana (Phalaenopsis taenialis being it's current name) can be temperamental, NOT using it as the mother plant would be a good idea, as the hybrid would be adapted to a wider range of conditions.

Mini Mark x braceana seems promising though, I'd be interested in seeing that.
How do you plan on sowing the seeds?

tmoney · #5 03-12-2021, 12:07 AM

hey there!

honestly with orchids, because they are so new to me, i am just happy if they don’t die

so yeah, at this point all of this is purely hypothetical, but i am slowly accumulating things to flask seeds. im really hoping the experimental seed pod on the other plant works out so I can try the process. then, in theory, this cross would be the second flasking attempt.

I’m leaning towards green pod, gonna make a glove box setup. i already have the medium for phals, as i was a little wide eyed when i made my first couple online orders, hahahahah.

Orchidtinkerer · #6 03-12-2021, 10:00 AM

Quote:

but dang, where do you get information like that?

A well educated guess looking at the offspring on Phalaenopsis Mini Mark

From my limited experience I have found the father passes more of the flower color on to the offspring but there is no general rule.

It takes a phal 9 months to produce a seed pod, it will only do so once the plant is in above average condition. I'm sure your plant is is good condition but I'd say from a well educated guess nobody has produced a seed pod before caring for their phal for at least a year. It needs to build up the needed energy first.

I'd recommend you look into places that will offer to grow your seeds for you. Doing it yourself the first time will never go as planned. A lab doing it for you is very good value for money and less chance of something going wrong. You could even try to do it yourself alongside the lab and see how you get on compared to the lab.

I think Roellke Orchideen offer this service, or see if Ederer orchideen offers it.

Mr.Fakename · #7 03-12-2021, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidtinkerer

It takes a phal 9 months to produce a seed pod, it will only do so once the plant is in above average condition.

Depends, Phal equestris takes 3-4 months and Phal violacea up to a year and a half.

You're right about conditions though, the stress of adapting to a new home makes the plant likely to drop the capsule.

tmoney · #8 03-12-2021, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidtinkerer

A well educated guess looking at the offspring on Phalaenopsis Mini Mark

I'd recommend you look into places that will offer to grow your seeds for you. Doing it yourself the first time will never go as planned. A lab doing it for you is very good value for money and less chance of something going wrong. You could even try to do it yourself alongside the lab and see how you get on compared to the lab.

I think Roellke Orchideen offer this service, or see if Ederer orchideen offers it.

thanks for tips! that’s not such a bad idea if i were to get super lucky with seed. and yeah, not expecting much as both are still not even in flower! but, let’s continue the hypotheticals then, shall we?

assuming you get a pod at some point, and have a company flask it for you, are there any copywriter protections, so to speak, on your cross? if it turned out to be like the cross of the century, how can you garantee that they will give you your cross for you to register and not take it and register it themselves?

sort of pessimistic I know, and making a lot of assumptions here, but oh well.

aliceinwl · #9 03-12-2021, 10:36 PM

Not much to contribute, but I pollinated some newly purchased box store Phalaenopsis (not all in great condition) and they produced pods. I didn’t make a serious effort to grow out any of the seeds. To support the pod, the plants did blast all of their flowers pretty much immediately which was a rather unpleasant surprise for me

tmoney · #10 03-13-2021, 12:54 AM

huh, i wonder if thats normal to drop other flowers? i have my first pod in development, pollinated just under a month ago, and the other flowers are looking fine so far, and in fact i noticed yesterday it actually looks the its still extending the spike and putting on new buds. i just hope im not killing this seed orchid, as it is one of my girlfriends original phals and shell kill me if i kill it!! Hahaha, oh well, time will tell.