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  #1  
Old 11-25-2021, 08:45 PM
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This experiment was undertaken to see if overdosing KelpMax produced exaggerated outcomes that would serve as supporting evidence for the product claims at the label dosing. Based on the outcomes observed, I have no doubt that KelpMax stimulates growth of root and top-growth meristems. An additional observation is that, overdosing KelpMax stimulates growth in one area (e.g. more profuse root growth or multiple leads) but at least to some extent at the cost of growth in another area (e.g. new growth size). While kelpmax appears to cause new growths that subsequently grow roots, I’ve seen no evidence that overdosing can cause new roots to grow from old bare rootless stems.

Returning to the topic of normal dosing. Based on the overdosing outcomes, it seems likely that using KelpMax at the label dose will help plants with insufficient roots establish more quickly, increase the likelihood that stems will branch, and increase the likelihood that old rootless back-divisions will start new growths, root, and therefore survive.

I should also mention that, with the exception of the C. leopoldii which had good roots, the back divisions with few roots got soaked overnight in KelpMax at 1Tbs/gal. All plants were overdosed with labeled doses applied at every watering rather than the prescribed once per month.

At this point I feel that the outcomes have provided the evidence I was seeking and I have discontinued this overdosing experiment.Here is a summary describing some of the outcomes. I will post photos if there is any interest:
  • A healthy one-lead mature C. intermedia grew three new leads, all maturing at about ¾ the size of the previous year’s growth. Additionally, a remarkable number of roots grew out of the basket to ramble along on the basket’s outside surfaces. I like this outcome because this plant may produce and flower from three rather than one new growths next spring, but this remains to be seen.
  • The roots branched profusely on a vanda with many long unbranched roots hanging down about 2 feet below the basket. This orchid also started a new growth at its base. This vanda is flowering for the third time since the beginning of summer, though this may be due to a new heavy fertilizing schedule that also began this summer.
  • A less than mature-sized back-division of a fully mature one-lead C. leopoldii “Sanbar Giant’ with plenty of healthy roots grew three new leads after division, all three smaller than the previous growths. Depending on the three-lead back-bulbs do this spring, I may eventually sell the original one-lead plant because the three-lead plant is likely to have three time the flowers in about two years.
  • A leafless 4-bulb far-back division of C. intermedia grew two new leads, both maturing at a pathetic ¾ inches tall. It would have been better if this division had put out one new lead that achieved a larger size. Based on the size of the new bulbs, this plant may not bloom for 3-4 years. I may throw it out.
  • A C. violacea back division with few roots grew two new leads, both maturing at about 1.5” tall. As with the forgoing C. intermedia, I would have rather it had 1 lead that was larger and more robust. This old division and the previous one might have had one new lead at normal KelpMax dosing.
  • Two four-bulb C. violacea forward divisions with good roots divided at the beginning of the summer put out growths that matured at a smaller size then earlier bulbs, then flowered out of season this fall.
  • A Dendrobium phalaenopsis hybrid with one mature cane produced 10 new leads/keikis. I removed the first seven, which are now growing in individual pots at a size that will most likely bloom next year. The mother plant recently put out a spike.
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Last edited by K-Sci; 11-25-2021 at 08:48 PM..
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2021, 08:56 PM
Dusty Ol' Man Dusty Ol' Man is offline
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Don't throw out the C. intermedia. I'm close. Send it to me. I will keep you apprised of its progress.
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Old 11-25-2021, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Ol' Man View Post
Don't throw out the C. intermedia. I'm close. Send it to me. I will keep you apprised of its progress.
Works for me. Message me with your address and I will send it out Monday.

-Keith
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Old 11-25-2021, 09:07 PM
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Dusty OM, here's a pic. The plant is C. intermedia 'Boa Vista'

-Keith
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2021, 09:20 AM
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Keith - Very interesting observations. Thank you for posting them.

FWIW, In the 8 or 9 years I’ve used KelpMax, I have done “overdosing” only when first using the product on a new plant, or when repotting, where I apply it at three consecutive waterings before going to the recommended once-per-month routine.

I have soaked rootless plants in a double-concentration bath (i.e., 2 tablespoons/gallon) for several hours., and have occasionally used that concentration on landscape plants, but I try to stick to the routine with the orchids.

About a month ago, I dumped some (about a cup per plant) straight from the bottle on a couple of Neomarica caerulea plants in my front yard. No damage was done, but I have seen no apparent reaction, either. Maybe the roots have gone wild…. We’ll see. These are at the end of their growing season anyway, and typically dry back over winter (or look so bad, they are cut back), so if those plants emerge sooner or grow faster than the others next spring, I’ll have a better idea what happened.

A comparative observation: when I have used KelpMax to try to induce back-bulbs into growth, my starting materials were apparently not a “far back” as the cattleya you posted. It may be that the particular division just didn’t have quite the reserves it needed to fully support significant growth. I’m with Dusty on that one - it probably just needs to be treated more like a very young seedling that doesn’t have the “colony” for support.
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2021, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
[*] A healthy one-lead mature C. intermedia grew three new leads, all maturing at about ¾ the size of the previous year’s growth.
I hate growths like those. I hear your theory that it will grow bigger ones in future but will it is the question.
Cause smaller bulbs are slower growing in my experience.

I really try to go for the biggest bulbs even if that does not happen every time.

I hope it is ok to discuss kelpmax on the forum in a constructive way.

Like here in Europe it can be a bit harder to find and you know how you sometimes get sent a fake product on Amazon?

I don't think mine is fake but my seaweed raises my tds by very very little.

My kelpmax raises it by a lot. So is it really meant to raise tds by so much is what I wanted to know previously.

2 ml of orchid focus fertilizer per liter raises tds by 200ppm

2ml of kelpmax per liter raises tds by 100 ppm

2ml of seaweed extract per liter raises tds by 20ppm

So I just wanted to know if anyone could confirm that it is meant to be like that
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2021, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Shadeflower View Post
I hate growths like those. I hear your theory that it will grow bigger ones in future but will it is the question.
Cause smaller bulbs are slower growing in my experience.

I really try to go for the biggest bulbs even if that does not happen every time.

I hope it is ok to discuss kelpmax on the forum in a constructive way.

Like here in Europe it can be a bit harder to find and you know how you sometimes get sent a fake product on Amazon?

I don't think mine is fake but my seaweed raises my tds by very very little.

My kelpmax raises it by a lot. So is it really meant to raise tds by so much is what I wanted to know previously.

2 ml of orchid focus fertilizer per liter raises tds by 200ppm

2ml of kelpmax per liter raises tds by 100 ppm

2ml of seaweed extract per liter raises tds by 20ppm

So I just wanted to know if anyone could confirm that it is meant to be like that
Good comments and questions, Shadeflower.

I’ve never gotten a “fake product” through Amazon, but I’ll take your word that it happens.

I don’t think any product is “intended” to raise the TDS, but anything that changes the electrical conductivity of the solution will show a change in TDS, because the conductivity is really the only thing the meters measure. I suppose it’s even possible that an additive might reduce the conductivity of a solution, thereby giving a false indication of reducing the TDS!

I think we may 1) be far too concerned with TDS than we need to, and 2) typically underestimate what that true TDS level is.

MSU RO fertilizer and it’s European counterpart, Rain Mix, are commonly used at 100 ppm N levels, which many would argue is very safe. The true TDS contribution at that level is in excess of 700 ppm.
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Old 11-26-2021, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadeflower View Post
Like here in Europe it can be a bit harder to find and you know how you sometimes get sent a fake product on Amazon?
Yes. Amazon is riddled with counterfeits, some brazenly claiming to be authentic delivered in sealed packaging copied from the authentic product.

Quote:


I don't think mine is fake but my seaweed raises my tds by very very little.
I'm pretty sure the KelpMax seller on Amazon in the US is Ray, but maybe not there. Maybe Ray will be able to shed some light. You could ask him hif he'll ship to you, though the cost would likely be higher than the product.
Quote:

My kelpmax raises [TDS] by a lot. So is it really meant to raise tds by so much is what I wanted to know previously.

2 ml of orchid focus fertilizer per liter raises tds by 200ppm

2ml of kelpmax per liter raises tds by 100 ppm

2ml of seaweed extract per liter raises tds by 20ppm

So I just wanted to know if anyone could confirm that it is meant to be like that
This is a very easy test so I went to the greenhouse and took the measurements.

2 gallons (7.5L) RO water: 1ppm
with (2Tbs (30mL) KelpMax: 71ppm


30mL /7.5L = 4mL/L. Thus you are applying KelpMax at half the 1Tbs/gal (4ml/L) label rate and 2mL/L should raise TDS by roughly half or 35ppm.


My TDS meter is calibrated against a standard solution, but my 2 gallon watering bucket isn't. This could easily be off by +/- 5 ppm.

-Keith

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
MSU RO fertilizer and it’s European counterpart, Rain Mix, are commonly used at 100 ppm N levels, which many would argue is very safe. The true TDS contribution at that level is in excess of 700 ppm.
This is because N isn't the only ingredient, is it not?
-Keith
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I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character - Martin Luther King Jr.

End the teaching of racism in public schools.
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2021, 12:01 PM
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kelpmax= me likey

don’t thank me for the insightful post, it’s really my pleasure
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
I'm pretty sure the KelpMax seller on Amazon in the US is Ray, but maybe not there. Maybe Ray will be able to shed some light. You could ask him hif he'll ship to you, though the cost would likely be higher than the product.
Yes, I sell on Amazon in the US. There are other products around the world labeled as "Kelpmax", but I have no idea what they are.
Quote:
This is a very easy test so I went to the greenhouse and took the measurements.

2 gallons (7.5L) RO water: 1ppm
with (2Tbs (30mL) KelpMax: 71ppm


30mL /7.5L = 4mL/L. Thus you are applying KelpMax at half the 1Tbs/gal (4ml/L) label rate and 2mL/L should raise TDS by roughly half or 35ppm.


My TDS meter is calibrated against a standard solution, but my 2 gallon watering bucket isn't. This could easily be off by +/- 5 ppm.
It might be off by more than that. Standardized EC solutions tend to be mostly (if not all) NaCl of known concentration. Na+ and Cl- affect EC a lot differently than do the ingredients in other chemicals.
Quote:
This is because N isn't the only ingredient, is it not?
-Keith
True TDS is found by evaporating 100% of the water from the solution, so is equivalent to the amount of powder one must add to pure water to create the solution in the first place. For K-Lite, for example, a 100 ppm N solution requires 0.77g/L, that is, a true TDS of 770 ppm.

We do have to be careful, though, as some ingredients may not ionize, so don't contribute to the EC. Using the simple example of Epsom Salts - MgSO4-7H2O - the crystalline water, when in solution, would dilute it, lowering the EC, (albeit infinitesimally), wouldn't it?
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