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  #1  
Old 12-13-2018, 08:48 AM
Neodex Neodex is offline
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Variegation - characteristics of non shima types. Male
Default Variegation - characteristics of non shima types.

Variegated neos can only survive if some parts of the leaves are green, entirely yellow plants obviously don't do so well. An unproven, but very reasonable assumption is that the shima types are chimeral in nature. This means that the cells of the leaves don't carry identical genes, the yellow leaf cells have mutated chloroplasts and the green cells don't. This is an over simplification, but for now this will do. We can have a separate thread about the implications of this mechanism for shima types.

This thread is for all those variegated neos that are not chimeral. I've been thinking about this a bit and wondering how many types of non-chimeral variegation there are in neos.

I will start off with my examples and list the differences, unfortunately I don't have a way of posting pictures at the moment. Note these are my experiences, if yours are different please post in this thread.

Houmeiden and Jitsugetsukoo.

These are a bit similar in that they are both white tigers and so lack both chlorophyll and xanthophyll (or whatever yellow carotenoid neos have). The leaves emerge with more white variegation and as they age some of this variegation is reversed, so the older leaves are less variegated than the newer ones. It seems to me that once the variegation is lost, it cannot be regained? These do seem to produce more variegation when the growth rate is fastest. I have another plant that I bought as Shirayuki, but I think it's more likely Takakuma. It's a large, fast growing plant that produces pale lime green to white variegation that is very much linked to growth rate and leaf emergence, but reverses quite quickly as the leaves age so that only a few spots are left by the end of the growing season.

Hanagoromo

This one is very light dependent. The leaves that get direct sunlight turn yellow, the more shaded leaves do not.
It seems to be very reversable, when my plant has been moved from a sunny place to a more shaded place the leaves do turn more green. I suspect that if I grew this plant with more shade for a couple of seasons it would become totally green again. The variegation is more spread out and doesn't generally show the classical tiger stripe banding. I think of Hanagoromo as having reactive variegation that is completely reversible both ways and not dependent on growth rate and leaf emergence.

Akogare

This one is supposed to have yellow new leaves, mine is not consistent with this feature, but I will makes notes about conditions when the emergent leaves are yellow (there is likely a genetic variation with this feature in seedlings). The variegation seems to me to be reversable, in that the yellow bits can green up quite quickly. During the summer my plant growing on a south facing windosill had acquired yellow highlights, particularly along the leaf edges and at the leaf base, now already it's mostly green except at the leaf base. The most yellow pigmentation I've seen on my plant is at the end of winter when I'd had it under the skylight in our loft where it is rather cold (average 9 C - upper 40s F). The plant emerged from this cold winter rest with mostly yellow leaves and a red stem (or axis). Last year I didn't put this one in the loft, but on the bathroom windowsill with the same south facing aspect as the loft window and it mostly stayed green. I need to confirm this cold-dependent light sensitivity with Akogare, and when my plant is big enough to divide, I will do this experiment.

So that is all my non-shima types. What I'm really interested in with these are the following characteristics:
1) How much of the variegation seems to be laid down during leaf emergence and is there generally more of it during the fastest growth periods.
2) Is the variegation reversible; either green to yellow/white or back again ?
3) Is it light dependent and if so can this be replicated under artificial lighting?
4) Are there any temperature effects on variegation.

What I lack in my collection are any of the classic yellow tigers that seem to have more stable variegation, so if any of you have these please join in.

@Hakumin, I'm hoping that you could help us out with some of the Japanese terminology regarding these types of variegation, I'm a bit confused with this.
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  #2  
Old 01-07-2019, 10:24 PM
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MattWoelfsen MattWoelfsen is offline
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Neodex, I’m surprised you haven’t gotten a reply. So I’m replying to your post to keep it going!
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Old 01-08-2019, 03:08 PM
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Variegation - characteristics of non shima types. Male
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I didn't see this when posted. I do recall there have been discussions here in the past about how to grow variegated Neos so they look the best. I suggest you go back through the Neo forum, and also use the Search function in the top maroon menu.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:12 AM
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Hakumin Hakumin is offline
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Sorry, not sure how I missed this post.

Houmeiden & Jitsugetsukou, as well as Amanogawa, Benihotaru, and a few others have a very similar type of variegation. However, this type of variegation is not given a unique name and is usually simply referred to as Tora-fu 虎斑. Some people will call it Houmeiden type variegation. It can also be seen as a type of akebono-fu 曙斑, variegation that only shows up on new leaves and disappears as the leaves mature. (The variety akebono does not have akebono-fu ) Yes, once the variegation turns green, it will not come back and the variegation is best when the plant is growing fastest.

Hanagoromo, as well as Kinroukaku, Koganenishiki, Kinyuuko, and Kinboshi have the same type of variegation. These are definitely affected by light levels. The more light you give a given plant, the brighter the variegation (within reason!). This type of variegation is reversible, and can freely go from green to yellow to back to green depending on light levels. These varieties are interesting in that given good strains and high enough light, the plant can turn almost solid yellow and still grow well.

Akogare is described as basic Akebono-fu, which is a subset of tora-fu. The new leaves should emerge solid yellow, and later darken to green, but I've heard that it's fussy, and needs very particular growing conditions to do this well. I personally have not owned this variety so I'm not certain what conditions it needs.

Your other questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
1) How much of the variegation seems to be laid down during leaf emergence and is there generally more of it during the fastest growth periods.
This depends on each variety. In varieties like Hanagoromo, Kinkujaku, and similar variegation types, the variegation only appears after the leaf has matured. Growth cycles don't affect the variegation on these much. However, akebono-fu types tend to show the variegation best when the plant is growing fastest. Growth stages, speed or season sometimes do affect the variegation other varieties as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
2) Is the variegation reversible; either green to yellow/white or back again ?
Depends on the variety again. In a variety like Houmeiden, once the leaf turns green, it will not turn white again. In varieties like Kinkujaku though, the variegation freely goes back and forth between green and yellow depending on light levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
3) Is it light dependent and if so can this be replicated under artificial lighting?
Some types are light dependant, and yes it can be replicated under artificial lighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
4) Are there any temperature effects on variegation.
Certain tora-fu types seem to show best in specific temperatures. Houmeiden for one, will less likely show it's white if the temperatures are very high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
What I lack in my collection are any of the classic yellow tigers that seem to have more stable variegation, so if any of you have these please join in.
While some varieties are more likely to have more stable variegation than others, tora-fu and akebono-fu type variegation is inherently unstable and requires you to learn the specific needs of the variety to produce the best variegation. These types are notoriously difficult to grow to show quality, much more so than the chimeral types of variegation.

Out of my collection, varieties of these types that have the most reliable variegation are Byakko, Kyokusho. Byakko has Setsuzan type greenish white mottling, and Kyokusho has beautifully shaded yellow sectors on the leaf. Byakko seems to be fairly consistently well variegated among other growers, but I've heard mixed stories about getting Kyokusho to be nicely variegated.

Byakko:
I've found this variety as well as similarly variegated varieties gets it's best variegation in low light, with no big consideration for temperature or growing season. Too much light and the variegation tends to disappear.


Kyokusho:
I've found this variety to like relatively higher light to get the best variegation. Yellow sectors will emerge white-yellow and later deepen to solid yellow, while green sectors will emerge pale green, then later deepen in color to dark green. I think shifts in temperature and light both work together in triggering the color of each sector. Variegation once it appears seems to stay in place, though keeping it in insufficient light seems to permanently turn the yellow sectors green.
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Last edited by Hakumin; 01-09-2019 at 03:24 AM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:54 AM
Neodex Neodex is offline
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Thanks a lot Hakumin. This was exactly what I was after, with beautiful pics as a bonus. Both of these look really nice, although the Kyokusho would be my choice. I have a plant that produces new leaves that look a lot like your Byakko, but they go mostly green over winter. I bought it years ago as Shirayuki, but it is a large plant with vigorous growth which I think might be Takakuma, but will never know. Photos I've seen of Shirayuki make me think it has a similar type of variegation to Byakko.

There is a variety called Shinkiro on sale at Orchids Delux in the EU, from the picture it seems to be of the Akebono-fu type with good yellow on new leaves and even down the stems a bit. Do you know anything about this one?
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:41 PM
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Hakumin Hakumin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neodex View Post
There is a variety called Shinkiro on sale at Orchids Delux in the EU, from the picture it seems to be of the Akebono-fu type with good yellow on new leaves and even down the stems a bit. Do you know anything about this one?
While it seems that Shikirou does occasionally have yellow new leaves, it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. The type of variegation it is known for is called Koshi-fu 腰斑, variegation that shows up at the base of the leaves near the stem:


(Photo source: www.pungnan.or.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=class&wr_id=294)

Other varieties that have this type of variegation include Shingetsu, Hotarusango, and a few others. Izumibotan is a fun variety that consistently shows both Akebono-fu and Koshi-fu
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Last edited by Hakumin; 01-09-2019 at 03:52 PM..
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