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  #1  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:19 PM
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Default Naming Sibbed and Selfed Neofinetias

Are there any generally accepted rules as to whether the offspring can be given the same name as the parents or a new name if substantially different and is the decision subjective?

I am particularly disturbed by the naming of selfed and sibbed Neofinetia Toyozakura offspring with the name of the parent yet not resembling it in the least, a con on the purchaser especially if pictures of the true Toyozakura are displayed at the point of sale.

An honest vendor would at least describe what the flower will look like or picture it even if the deceptive name is used.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 07-21-2018 at 06:23 PM..
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:17 PM
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Naming Sibbed and Selfed Neofinetias Male
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That mistake is a fairly common practice with carnivorous plants, but most orchid people know better.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:07 PM
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I don't want to comment without seeing the exact wording.

Use of the words, "selfed" and/or "sibbed" implies that it is seed propagated therefore anything is genetically possible.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonYMouse View Post


Use of the words, "selfed" and/or "sibbed" implies that it is seed propagated therefore anything is genetically possible.
I agree 100% with what you are saying. This would imply that selfed or sibbed plants should not be given the same name as the parents but in actual practice that is not always what is going on. It also implies that only divisions should be given the same name, a commercial impossibility.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subrosa View Post
That mistake is a fairly common practice with carnivorous plants, but most orchid people know better.
Orchid vendors “know better” but that doesn’t seem to discourage some from the practice of stretching definitions to encourage sales.

The issue is complex, an example is Neofinetia Yubae. I am certain in that case, any Neofinetia hybrid with yellowish tepals and pink spur is given that name despite the varying ancestry of the plants involved. This is fine as long as the purchasers are aware of what they are getting and hopefully actually see the blooms of the actual plant being purchased. Yubaes vary markedly as far as attractiveness.

I am beginning to feel that buying the plant and not obsessing over the name may be the best way of looking at things. In other words, if I like the plant, I don't care what it is called.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 07-21-2018 at 11:03 PM..
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:32 AM
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Neo names as used in Japan and Korea are not the same as names given to western orchid clones. This is because rather than the more limited definition used by orchid societies in the west, Neo varieties in practice follow the more inclusive definition of horticultural cultivars as outlined by the The International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants:

International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants - Wikipedia

Here is a copy of the 8th Edition:

http://www.actahort.org/chronica/pdf/sh_10.pdf

In particular: A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform and stable in these characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters.

According to this code, a selfed or sibbed seed grown plant is just as appropriate to be considered part of the same cultivar as divisions and mericlones, as long as the offspring in question have retained the specific (and usually limited) range of characteristics that define the cultivar.

This code is actually what the majority of the horticultural world follows when they name plants and cultivars. The way orchid growers say that individuals that make up a cultivar must be divisions or clones is actually more of an exception rather than the rule. In the western orchid world, the precise genotype is generally considered the defining characteristic of an orchid cultivar, but that is not the same in all other horticultural circles.

What matters in all cases is the range of characteristics that have been defined by the cultivar name. That range of characteristics could be pretty much anything worth propagating for: genotype, color, variegation, unusual vegetative habits, sugar content, essential oil content, headspace volatile content, starch content, growth speed, or any combination thereof. As long as the combination of characteristics is propagable by any means, it can constitute the defining characteristics of a cultivar.

That said, while the current Japanese and Korean naming convention of Neos is not perfectly in line with this code, it is more or less the same in its basics.

Because of this, it is indeed true that Neo vendors sell selfed or sibbed seed grown plants with the same name as the parent, and quite a few varieties are more commonly propagated by seed than by division.

Many western orchid growers balk at this idea, but it needs to be understood that the world of traditional Japanese horticulture (Koten-engei), including the horticulture of Neos, has never attempted to follow the rules and customs of western orchid growing. The customs, traditions and practices of Neo horticulture have evolved entirely separately from that of western orchid horticulture and it is misguided and narrow-minded to try and conflate the conventions of Japanese and Korean Neo variety names with the conventions of clonal cultivar names as defined by the western orchid societies.

In the western orchid world, there is a perceived need and widespread desire to limit cultivars to genetic clones, and it is arguably a legitimate need. That need, however, does not apply to the entire horticultural world though. In the world of annual plants and its cultivars, it is pretty much impossible or at least extraordinarily impractical to define a cultivar by its exact genotype. In some parts of the world of food agriculture, it's pointless and uneconomical to insist that cultivars be defined by the same genotype as long as the plants in the cultivar carry the same desirable characteristics. In a similar way, the current mainstream conventions of the Neo world do not require plants within a cultivar to be genetically identical as long as the required characteristics are there.

That said, there are many growers in Japan and Korea that would prefer that names be retained strictly by plants propagated by division, and all plants grown from seed (and even mericlone) be given a different name, or at least always be sold with "seedling" in parenthesis.

As many western growers would agree, there would be some merit in a system where plants to be named and sold in this way. In fact, in the future, when the western Neo community becomes big enough, some of these other ideals may become mainstream enough to make an impact on the Neo community as a whole. However, at this very moment in time, the reality is what it is, and hoping for otherwise can't really be much more than wishful thinking.

So, for now at least, as long as the plants in question carry the necessary defined characteristics, we simply cannot fault anyone for selling seed-propagated Neos with the same name as the parent because that is the currently accepted reality of Neos in its own world separate from western orchids.

However, because this reality creates its own unique issues, it is important to do proper research when you are getting into Neos. Some Neo characteristics, by biological nature, can only be inherited by divisions and not by seedlings or mericlones. Some characteristics make a plant sexually sterile, and can only be propagated by division or mericlone. Some characteristics are easily inherited through seed propagation. Knowing which varieties have which characteristics, and knowing which characteristics fall in which category will help in your choices and help shape your expectations. Knowing the defined characteristics of a variety and and knowing what characteristics are variable within that variety will help you find the perfect specimens for your collection. In many ways, yes, the name shouldn't be the only thing you look at when you go to purchase a Neo.

Of course though, this is not to say that Neo names are not important or meaningless. The names do encode necessary information. It's just that that information is not necessarily of the same type as western orchid names.

And also, this does not mean that "original" clones are necessarily lost in the seas of seed grown offspring. There are many growers in Japan and Korea who desire originals of certain varieties, and some growers even insist on original divisions of every variety they own. If you know where to look or who to ask, it's actually not that difficult to obtain them, and an honest vendor will tell you what they know regarding the genetic identity of a given specimen if you ask.

All in all, it really is important to understand that the Neo world and the western orchid world are two completely different and, in many ways, incompatible worlds. To try and enter the world of Neos hard set with the ideas, traditions and naming conventions of western orchids is a lot like moving to a foreign country and expecting their food, culture and customs to be the same as yours. You might not agree with some aspects of their culture, but you can't expect it to change for your own sake.

You know what they say; when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Last edited by Hakumin; 11-28-2018 at 07:25 PM..
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  #6  
Old 07-22-2018, 07:03 AM
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The confusion may be coming it because of the oversimplified way that neo's are labeled only as the cultivar.

Neofinetia Toyozakura should be labeled as Neofinetia falcata 'Toyozakura', which to experienced horticulturists, automatically tells you that a plant other than a division or clone will not be the same cultivar.
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:46 AM
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Hakumin,

Thank you for your highly detailed reply.

I am going to have to read it more than several times to absorb what you are conveying. I knew the answer was going to be complex (but not this complex) and what should have been obvious to any follower of this Orchid Board section, I initiated this thread specifically to get a reply from you.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 07-22-2018 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:12 AM
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One thing I should add is that the circumstances I mentioned above do not permit a Neo seller to label seed-grown offspring by the parent's name without proper verification of the characteristics. Not all of the seed grown offspring of a plant will carry the necessary characteristics for a cultivar, so verification is always necessary. (For what it's worth, when it comes to variegation or leaf mutations, even divisions sometimes don't carry the same traits as the parent, and will be called by a different name)

Any Neo grower anywhere in the world would consider a vendor who sells seedlings with the parent's name without verifying them, or without indicating that they are unverified, uneducated at best and dishonest at worst.

When it comes to variegated varieties or varieties with unique vegetative forms, it's quite easy to see through this issue as long as you do your research, but there are many people around the world who either fraudulently, or mistakenly sell seed grown flower varieties in this way.

While it is certainly unfortunate that this happens, it is up to the buyer to do the research to avoid falling for these traps. If it becomes evident that it this is being done in fraud rather than ignorance, it is also up to the buyer to report the fraudulent activity, especially if it happens on a platform like ebay.

An honest Neo vendor, on the other hand, will only sell a seed grown plant using the name of the parent (without caveats) only if they are confident that the plant in question has the required defining characteristics of that variety. If they turn out to be incorrect, an honest vendor will promptly and willingly offer a refund or replacement when it is brought up to them.

Last edited by Hakumin; 07-23-2018 at 07:46 PM..
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:03 PM
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Thanks Hakumin, great insights there.

My thoughts are:

As I've been getting seriously hooked in the last year on neos, I've researched images upon images of varieties and even among images of the same variety they really can look very to subtly different from image to image, show images (presumably verified) to private collections documented online (also presumably verified). To the extent that new varieties can come out of a batch of potentially sibbed offsprings, or from a single growth off a single plant means that yes we can't look at it in the western world way of looking at it.

And this goes without saying, but plants of a single variety can differentiate simply by growing conditions and culture. By western standards, we could easily be naming every single species we all have of the same thing if not verifiably a mericlone or division. Oh well some sure seem to name everything they possibly can...

So in terms of names, at the end of day if this matters, probably best to get it from a reputable grower/ vendor/ or long time neo enthusiast.
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