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  #1  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:28 AM
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Default Bean Leaf Definition?

I am beginning to suspect that the concept of bean leaf Neofinetias is not meaningful or at best not clearly defined.

I always thought that having a rounded leaf tip was the defining characteristic but now I occasionally see advertisements referring to plants being offered as beanleafs which have pointed leaves!

Is the whole concept really defined or just meaningless advertisers jargon? Is there some clear definition known only to the privileged few?

Is it that a bean leaf is a bean leaf if it is in the eyes of the beholder? ie totally meaningless. I have no idea.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 04-13-2018 at 10:35 AM..
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:36 PM
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I see New Would Orchids and The American Orchid Society both state bean leaf as thicker and shorter as the description. Iím sure Iíve seen a thread here relating to bean leaf or Mameba. Hakumin was very helpful in that thread as usual. Iíll see if I can locate it.

The bean leaf Neos are so cute and definitely my favorite. I like their heaven facing flowers as well.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattywack View Post
I see New Would Orchids and The American Orchid Society both state bean leaf as thicker and shorter as the description. Iím sure Iíve seen a thread here relating to bean leaf or Mameba. Hakumin was very helpful in that thread as usual. Iíll see if I can locate it.

The bean leaf Neos are so cute and definitely my favorite. I like their heaven facing flowers as well.
The top ďstickyĒ thread has a definition. But is it authoritative, also I donít assign any trust to what NWO or even the AOS says. Is it just an advertising concept?

A description referring to shortness or thickness doesnít define anything, how short and how thick, too subjective.

Perhaps width to length ratio, but if so what ratio for mature leaves?

Is there an official definition by an authoritative source?

Hakumin's post below is a must read, a lot of information is involved, even the tsuke comes into play.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 04-13-2018 at 11:02 PM..
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:06 PM
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Bean Leaf Definition? Male
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I think it needs to be first understood that the term "bean leaf" has lost some meaning in translation. The original term in Japanese is Mameba 豆葉. Mame 豆, while out of context does literally mean "bean," as a prefix, it takes on a different meaning, "mini" or "dwarf." In this way, it is used to indicate dwarf varieties or breeds of things, or for things that are smaller than it should be. For example, Mame-shiba is a toy breed of the larger Shiba-inu; Mame-zakura is a dwarfed cultivar of a Sakura species; Mame-sara is a small plate for small amounts of pickles or spices; etc.

Now, that said, the usage of the term Mameba can be loose in some circles, and more restricted in others. It all depends on the specific differentiation required in the context of the conversation.

For most of growers internationally and the vast majority of growers in Japan, Mameba simply implies any dwarfed variety with short but full width leaves. The specific shape of the tip isn't important even though most varieties of this type will have rounded leaf tips. There are also many many long leaf varieties with rounded leaf tips that would never be categorized as Mameba.

Of course however, there are many shades in the spectrum of characteristics and precisely where one makes the distinction can be vague especially when less experienced growers are involved. Also, there are some very very small varieties with extraordinarily short leaves that are narrower than what you could call full width, that are still categorized as Mameba due to its overall behavior and characteristics. And of course, there is no quantitative or purely objective definition of the term by any authoritative source including either the Japanese or Korean neo associations. Because of these issues, the usage of the terminology can be a bit vague sometimes, and even the authoritative sources can vary a bit in what specifically they intend when using the term.

(Edited due to some misinterpretation of the original content and the resulting confusion)

Last edited by Hakumin; 05-07-2018 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:51 PM
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Thank you Hakumin.

There is a lot involved in this.

I knew you were going to contribute in this discussion.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 04-13-2018 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:09 PM
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Thank you Hakumin, very much appreciated.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:46 AM
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Default Narrower than What You Would Call Full Width

Hakumin,

That would disqualify a Neo from being considered a bean leaf. Can I assume that would disqualify Raikoumaru (which is small in an absolute sense compared to most neos) or does it being viewed as a hybrid (by many) disqualify it from consideration, and make any decision on bean leaf or not moot?

Can I assume narrower than what you would call full width really refers to ratio to length and not absolute dimension?
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Last edited by Shoreguy; 05-29-2018 at 12:01 PM..
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:18 PM
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Firstly, the hybrid nature of a plant does not disqualify it from being called a Bean leaf. In fact there is a Darwinara rainbow stars that was made using a Tamakongo that squarely and indisputably lands in the category of Mameba. Because this plant is a dwarf compared to other plants of the exact same hybrid cross, it is still a mameba.


Source: Negieorchids.com

In any case, in the end it is all rather subjective where the boundary between mameba and standard leaf is. Way back when there weren't as many varieties before seed propagation was possible, it was a lot clearer which ones are mameba and which ones are not. There were only a few hundred varieties at most, and since all named varieties at that point were strictly divisions of each other, there were far fewer subtle distinctions between plants and varieties. Back then, it really was clear whether it was mameba or not mameba.

But since the 80s when seed propagation gave rise to an exponential rise in the number of named varieties, and also gave rise to seed propagation of individual named varieties, the boundaries blurred. When you seed propagate a plant, you often introduce subtle variations to the genes that would never happen when propagating strictly by divison, and you end up with single named varieties with specimens that vary greatly in their leaf lengths, among other traits.

While there are some varieties, like Tamakongo, that when selfed will always create mameba offspring, varieties like Raikomaru, will not do the same. Regardless of the controversy of the genetic purity of the variety, Raikomaru is a modern variety that was only discovered in the 80s or 90s. The variety was found through seed propagation to begin with, and it continued to be propagated by seed. Unlike Tamakongo however, Raikomaru when propagated by seed will create a wide range of leaf lengths from long to short. Because of this, there are many strains of Raikomaru that have various leaf lengths. There are some that are indisputably bean leaf varieties, and many that are long leaf. There are just as many in addition that straddle the division between the two, blurring the lines. Because of this rather smooth gradation, it becomes very difficult to say whether the variety as a whole is mameba or not.

What can be said though is that some Raikomaru are mameba, but the majority are not. You really have to look at the individual plantís characteristics and compare it with public consensus to decide if it is mameba or not.

This is much the same with many other modern varieties. After the 80s and the boom in the number of named varieties, the lines between mameba and standard leaf have blurred considerably. This has resulted in a wide range of seemingly arbitrary or irrational labels of certain varieties. For example, some people will call the variety Yokozuna a mameba variety. Others insist that itís not. Because there are no strict objective definitions that define the characteristic there will probably never be a consensus. In those cases, it is best to use a combination of public consensus as well as your own educated observations to make your own judgement.

Last edited by Hakumin; 05-30-2018 at 12:16 AM..
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  #9  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:36 PM
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Thanks again Hakumin.

Your posts are invaluable and an important reference.
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