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  #1  
Old 02-19-2021, 05:36 PM
huiray huiray is offline
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Default Shukou-nishiki 秋紅錦

Hello,

This variety is a beautiful nishiki type, as borne out by the plant I recently acquired. The Japanese websites on the whole say that this is considered a hybrid with "western orchid blood" and also reflected in the flowers which many consider to bear this out. However, I don't seem to be able to find info on WHICH "western orchid" is in the parentage.

Does anyone know? (Hakumin?)
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2021, 06:47 PM
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Hakumin Hakumin is offline
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As far as I've found, there's no extant record of what was crossed to create Shukonishiki.

Examining the flowers, they are very obviously hybrid, but the characteristics aren't visibly traceable back to a single specific species in combination with Neo.

I suspect that It was created by crossing a variegated neo with a complex hybrid, rather than a single species, possibly a Darwinara, which has a very similar flower shape and arrangement. The original intent may have been to try and create a blue, or otherwise colored flower, variegated hybrid perhaps.

Shukonishiki Flowers: 1, 2, 3

Darwinara Flowers: 1, 2
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Last edited by Hakumin; 02-19-2021 at 07:14 PM..
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  #3  
Old 02-20-2021, 02:30 AM
huiray huiray is offline
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Hakumin,

Thanks very much for the reply. That seems like a reasonable speculation of yours.

Pity (yet again) that Japanese growers/breeders have seemed over the many years to be reluctant to either record or disclose their breeding experiments.
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Old 02-20-2021, 02:37 AM
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Hakumin Hakumin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huiray View Post
Pity (yet again) that Japanese growers/breeders have seemed over the many years to be reluctant to either record or disclose their breeding experiments.
In most cases, it's less that they were reluctant to record or disclose, they just didn't really care what the parentage was.

Nowadays though, more and more breeders are recording their processes and many of the newest varieties created by intra- or interspecific hybridization do have recorded parentage.
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Old 02-20-2021, 02:54 AM
huiray huiray is offline
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Yes, intra-breeding has certainly been recorded much of the "new" fukiran has been due to intra-breeding between varieties of fukiran and published and sold as such with declared varietal parentage. I suppose I am thinking more of the inter-species breeding, though; and in this respect in some of the cases of "intra-breeding" one could suspect that if the parentage included one of the "western blood" hybrids then it circles back to WHAT was that "western orchid"...

It's a little conflicting, mentally, to compare the breeders not caring, as you say, for the lineage (with western orchids?) with what I understand is still a core principle of the Nippon Fukirankai that "registered fukiran" be "pure" in their lineage. But I suppose those hybridizers wouldn't care or want to try registering their creations on the meikan anyway. :-) One can hope that they be upfront about a plant they are selling as being a hybrid with "western blood", at least, even if they don't care which "western orchid" it was.
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Old 02-20-2021, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huiray View Post
Yes, intra-breeding has certainly been recorded much of the "new" fukiran has been due to intra-breeding between varieties of fukiran and published and sold as such with declared varietal parentage.
Actually, I'd say that around 80-90% of new pure neo varieties introduced in Japan and Korea weren't created by crossing plants to mix characteristics, but created by selfing and looking for spontaneous mutations.

The range of characteristics that reliably transmit to the offspring is fairly limited, and because they have been bred into so many new varieties already, those characteristics have ended up being considered relatively boring. While breeding new varieties like this is fairly reliable and easy to do, the spontaneous mutations is where the real interest and money is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huiray View Post
It's a little conflicting, mentally, to compare the breeders not caring, as you say, for the lineage (with western orchids?) with what I understand is still a core principle of the Nippon Fukirankai that "registered fukiran" be "pure" in their lineage. But I suppose those hybridizers wouldn't care or want to try registering their creations on the meikan anyway. :-)
Well, in regards to registration, basically, if it's not pure neo, it doesn't matter what the parentage is, it just can't be registered.

As for the breeders, when they work with hybrids, they don't do so with the intention of ever registering them. They're meant to be fun and intriguing variations, and many of them can be extremely popular and valuable even if they can never be registered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huiray View Post
One can hope that they be upfront about a plant they are selling as being a hybrid with "western blood", at least, even if they don't care which "western orchid" it was.
There unfortunately have been cases where certain breeders have tried to pass off yellow flowered hybrids as wild found pure neos, but the vast majority of vendors are honest, and will tell you that a plant is a hybrid if you ask.

However, in many cases, because the fact that some of these varieties are hybrid is considered basic knowledge for growers in Japan and Korea, in many cases, a vendor might not bother to mention it unless explicitly asked.

While this is a bit annoying for many new growers, especially new western growers who don't have access to the wealth of knowledge available in Japanese and Korean, it's not meant at all to be fraudulent or misleading, but is just a matter of convenience for them.
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Last edited by Hakumin; 02-20-2021 at 04:25 AM..
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