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  #1  
Old 10-17-2020, 01:47 PM
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K-Sci K-Sci is offline
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No seller description, nothing found online - mystery Neos Male
Default No seller description, nothing found online - mystery Neos

Note: This is a re-post. The entire original thread vanished inexplicably while I was typing a response to Hakumin's very thorough reply to the original post. Hakumin's reply is included at the end of the OP, below.

*****************

I've got a few of these Mystery Neos. I thought I'd share three of them on the outside chance I'll learn something new. I'd also like to see the mystery Neos others have in their collections. Here they are in the order of increasing mystery.

#1 N. falcata Tenshou 天祥 - Online translators give the translation as Tianxiang. Wen Tianxiang (文天祥) was a Taiwanese(?) Song Dynasty hero.

The plant pictured is large 5.75" (14.5cm) with thick, wide exceedingly dark green himeba (gracefully arced) leaves. On my plant, the variegation is light green on a very dark green base color. The pattern is imahaze nochikurami chirifujima, which means scattered spread stripes that darken to green as the leaf ages. It has a crescent tsuke, and green roots. There is no indication this growth has flowered previous. The seller said the origin is unknown.

An expired New World Orchids listing portrays a very different Tenshou. They say "Neofinetia falcata Tenshou has a lovely peacock orientation to the leaves, but its most interesting feature is the flowers: white with an elephant trunk-like spur sticking out of the front!" This Tenshou doesn't appear to resemble mine at all.

There are Tenshou photos at Neofinetia.com.ua which look very similar to mine.
Neofinetia falcata Tenshou 天祥

On the other hand, there are Tenshou photos at flickriver.com with no variegation showing and very thin straight leaves. This could be the same as the one at NWO.
Flickriver: Photoset 'Neofinetia Falcata' by Mdmiranda88

#2 N. falcata Houraizan 蓬莱山 - Online translators yield "Penglai", the name of a mythical mountain. The seller's description said it was formerly named Shinwa.

This is a very large Neofinetia, measuring 10" leaf tip to leaf tip as it stands, 12" if the leaves were straight. New leaves increase in length by about 1" per month, which is very fast for a Neofinetia, but the leaves are so long it stacks them up at a normal rate. It has himeba (gracefully arched) leaves that occasional have a fine white chirifushima (scattered) stripe

If the stripes were to become much greater in number, this would be a spectacular Neofinetia. It has a crescent tsuike, mud stem, and green root tips. It is currently spiking, but I have not yet seen it bloom.

#3 N. falcata Okina Nishiki 翁錦 The name auto-translates as "Weng brocade", with "brocade"indicating shima stripes. "Weng" may be the Chinese district name taken as a surname by the descendants of the fourth king of the Zhou dynasty. On the other hand, "Okina" suggests (to my Western thinking) possible Okinawan origins, where my oldest son lived as a foreign exchange student.

My very thorough research found no mention of this cultivar or clues as to its desirable attributes. The seller did not provide a description and it is not registered by the Japanese or Koreans. I bought it because it I think it is possible that a well-grown N. Okina Nishiki could have a very elegant appearance with nicely stacked highly arched leaves that turn up at the tips. It could also develop My plant has no stripes.

*****************

The following is Hakumin's excellent reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin View Post
Iím sure you realize this at this point but translating names using automatic translators really doesn't usually give you much relevant info because Neo names are proper nouns, and the meanings don't always make sense when translated. It'd be no different than trying to put a person's name through google translate.

Also it seems that the translator that you were using was set to translate from Chinese rather than from Japanese or Korean. The results given from your translator is the transcription of how a Chinese speaker would read those characters. However, any Chinese meaning derived from the names is usually not relevant to the variety because Japanese and Korean readings and meanings of the characters donít always correspond closely to the Chinese readings and meanings.

In any case info about the varieties:

Tenshō 天祥 - The Korean associationís profile of the variety is here. The paraphrased translation is: Large size shima variety. The variegation is a clearly developed white-yellow chiri-fu type with a scattering of dark green stripes. The variegation is clearly visible on the top 1-2 leaves, and later darkens to solid green. Although the variegation is the type that disappears as the leaves mature, the contrast of the variegation on the new leaves is good. The wide and thick leaves are slightly upright but gracefully curved. The leaf tips are somewhat rounded. Mud stem, mud root, crescent tsuke. The name literally means "Heavenly auspices"

Hōraizan 蓬莱山 - Korean association profile here. Translation: Chirifu-shima variegated variety of Amami lineage. Neat shape overall with good balance and gracefully curved leaves with sharp tips. The variegation is sharp and clear as soon as the leaves emerge. The stripes are a soft cream in color sprinkled with darker green flecks and streaks against a dark green base. When first selected (2002, Korea), it was almost solid green with nearly invisible faint streaks of variegation, but an offshoot mutation created the stable variety currently seen today. Roots coming out of the highly variegated areas tend to be ruby in color. The name (which in Korean is read Bongraesan) refers to the summertime seasonal name given to the famous Geumgang mountain on the Korean peninsula. Furthermore, a further offshoot mutation from this variety with fukurin-shima variegation is called Shinhwa 神話 (Shinwa in Japanese).

Okina-Nishiki 翁錦 - This one I have heard the name before but unfortunately there this no information coming up in my usual sources. Iím not sure where I heard the name before, but Iíll see If any further searches turns anything up. The meaning of the name in Japanese is split into two parts. Okina 翁 basically means ďvenerable old man.Ē Nishiki 錦, while it does literally mean ďbrocadeĒ is a suffix used in neo names to indicate that the variety has variegation, usually of the shima type. The original meaning of "brocade" is almost always irrelevant when you see this character in a Neo name.
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No seller description, nothing found online - mystery Neos-tenshou-jpg   No seller description, nothing found online - mystery Neos-houraizan-jpg   No seller description, nothing found online - mystery Neos-okinanishiki-jpg  
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2020, 02:14 PM
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So, I found out that I had seen Okina-Nishiki before in Seed Engei's old email lists and ebay listings. Looking back at the last listing and given that there was no information given about the variety there, I'm not sure that I'll be able to find any info about it. There is nothing that shows up about it in any Japanese or Korean searches.
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  #3  
Old 10-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin View Post
So, I found out that I had seen Okina-Nishiki before in Seed Engei's old email lists and ebay listings. Looking back at the last listing and given that there was no information given about the variety there, I'm not sure that I'll be able to find any info about it. There is nothing that shows up about it in any Japanese or Korean searches.
I bought it from S-E, so you may found the listing I purchased from.

I have one more I can't find described anywhere. Bangkokmaru 蛮国丸. Is it listed on Pungnan?

How are you searching the Pungnan listings? I have not been able to find a search box. Much of their page text is in pictures, so the translators don't work.
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  #4  
Old 10-17-2020, 02:40 PM
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You are far more adventurous in your purchases than I am.

The Neof. Tenshou is absolutely beautiful.
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  #5  
Old 10-17-2020, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
I have one more I can't find described anywhere. Bangkokmaru 蛮国丸. Is it listed on Pungnan?
If you're talking about the variety listed on Orchidweb, they miswrote it.

Bankokumaru is written 万国丸. Profile is: here.

Paraphrased: Somewhat narrow and long leaves with a semi-upright, gracefully curved posture. While technically medium sized it has a sense of strength and stature. Yellow-green fukurin variegation that feels like they widen as the leaves mature. The variegation color changes depending on the growing environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
How are you searching the Pungnan listings? I have not been able to find a search box. Much of their page text is in pictures, so the translators don't work.
This is the link to the profile database. The search box is on the bottom right.

However, because Korea uses unsimplified Chinese characters, the search will only pick up the names when written using traditional unsimplified characters. Modern Japanese uses their own set of simplified Chinese characters, and this affects about 10-20% or so of variety names. To search for those in the Korean database you need to replace the simplified characters with traditional ones. (e.g. 青>靑, 国>國, 広>廣, etc.)

On the other hand, to make things easier for English speaking growers, I keep an updated spreadsheet of all the varieties with profiles there with romanizations here:

Neo Variety Profiles on the Korean Association Website - varieties.pdf - Google Drive
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Last edited by Hakumin; 10-17-2020 at 02:58 PM..
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  #6  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin View Post
If you're talking about the variety listed on Orchidweb, they miswrote it.

Bankokumaru is written 万国丸. Profile is: here.
The plant photo in the Orchidweb photo you linked to shows the actual plant I own. Thanks for the correction.
Quote:
Paraphrased: Somewhat narrow and long leaves with a semi-upright, gracefully curved posture. While technically medium sized it has a sense of strength and stature. Yellow-green fukurin variegation that feels like they widen as the leaves mature. The variegation color changes depending on the growing environment.
You've made my day with this great information with your posts in this thread. I'm a scientist by profession, so data is everything.
Quote:

This is the link to the profile database. The search box is on the bottom right.

However, because Korea uses unsimplified Chinese characters, the search will only pick up the names when written using traditional unsimplified characters. Modern Japanese uses their own set of simplified Chinese characters, and this affects about 10-20% or so of variety names. To search for those in the Korean database you need to replace the simplified characters with traditional ones. (e.g. 青>靑, 国>國, 広>廣, etc.)
Ouch! Online translators can give either, but it is not unlike that the multiple translations will fall short.
Quote:

On the other hand, to make things easier for English speaking growers, I keep an updated spreadsheet of all the varieties with profiles there with romanizations here:

Neo Variety Profiles on the Korean Association Website - varieties.pdf - Google Drive
I found the excel spreadsheet, and I'm very happy.

Who the heck are you that you are so familiar with these languages and have access to all this great data? Wow, you've been a great resource - THANK YOU!

When I started collecting Neos some 12-15 years ago or so, there weren't many Neo collectors in the US, and the choices were few. The only source I knew of was Glen at NWO, now deceased. It was only about 3 months ago that I discovered there are quite a few collectors in the US and several good sources.

K-Sci
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  #7  
Old 10-18-2020, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
Who the heck are you that you are so familiar with these languages and have access to all this great data? Wow, you've been a great resource - THANK YOU!
K-Sci
I just happen to be able to read Japanese and Korean and have a heavy interest in Neos. It also helps that I help run the Facebook and Reddit groups (both of which are much more active than the Neo section on the OB is now, btw...)
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Last edited by Hakumin; 10-18-2020 at 12:58 AM..
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2020, 01:26 AM
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K-Sci K-Sci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakumin View Post
I just happen to be able to read Japanese and Korean and have a heavy interest in Neos. It also helps that I help run the Facebook and Reddit groups (both of which are much more active than the Neo section on the OB is now, btw...)
I noticed the facebook and Reddit. Facebook is evil, but I'll check out the reddit.
-K
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  #9  
Old 10-18-2020, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
Facebook is evil...
-K
Yeah...........the one and only reason I'm still on there is the Neo group. I don't use Facebook for anything else at all really, and it's a complicated relationship for me. 8-9 years ago, the OB here was the biggest but almost everyone here migrated there, and now Facebook has grown to be by far the biggest English speaking and multinational neo community right now, connecting Western growers with Japanese and Korean growers.

On the other hand, I started the Reddit sub two years ago to help gather people who aren't on Facebook and It's been growing slowly but steadily.

(I'm not a mod here so I can't retrieve the data exactly, but I'd say that there are 5-6 regular posters in the Neo subforum here on OB, with about 4-6 new posts per month. The Facebook Neo group currently has 2836 members, with an average of about 170 new posts a month. The Reddit Neo Sub has 256 members and about 12 new posts a month. Or another potential metric, possibly indicating the number of people with a deeper interest in neos rather than just those subscribed on passing: of the 171 Neo history booklets I've distributed so far, 2 were requested here, 161 on Facebook, 6 on Reddit)
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Last edited by Hakumin; 10-18-2020 at 05:56 PM..
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Sci View Post
Note: This is a re-post. The entire original thread vanished inexplicably while I was typing a response to Hakumin's very thorough reply to the original post.
I'm just wondering why the thread disappeared. Is hakumin a subscriber member and has forum privileges that allows for own thread removal?
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