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  #1  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:20 AM
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u bada u bada is offline
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Default Suruga-fukurin?

I got this from Satomi and family last show labeled as Suruga-Fukurin but I have my doubts with all the variability of the variegation on this one... any thoughts? maybe nishidemiyako? or fuji-nishiki?
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  #2  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:40 AM
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Weird plant. The growth with the inner variegation is quite interesting. I'd be surprised if you get an id.

Just be happy with the unique plant that you got. You bought it so evidentially it appealed to you and it could be exciting to see what new growths the plant forms over time.
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  #3  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:43 PM
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Thanks for your input.

Yeah I tend to like variegation with variability and spread pattern. Suruga fukurin is a more consistent one with variegation and it was more just to have a more consistent variegation form, so i laugh that it may be more variable like my other ones. I think it's probably a nishidemiayako, but who knows. Satomi will hopefully get back to me as I asked her recently but curious on others thoughts here... does some pretty quiet here though.

I did get it because of its weirdness, as most of mine are kinda weird ones lol. I also like the red pigmentations on leaves, never noticed that in other cream fukurin types before.
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:33 PM
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u bada,

I have flagged below the specific growth with inner variegation (as there are at least one other with inner variegation included in your plant) that I greatly admire as there are a number of Neo varieties with inner variegation but few if any with such clarity.

I'm surprised Satomi sold you the plant with that growth since if it replicates itself, she would have been able to register it and reap big rewards.
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2019, 08:32 PM
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Thanks shoreguy,

yeah I fell in love with this one in part to the variability of the new growths but just didn't realize just how variable they were til I got home... thanks for info on inner variegation, did not know few varieties had that trait... I have akebono, a little single fan wonder, but even that isn't so clear even in nice individuals I've seen.

I'm thinking it's either higashidemiyako or gojo fukurin which can morph nakafu from what I read, but I doubt it would be consistent enough to form a new variety, and if it did it could be a decade lol... I know neos are more valuable when a name is attached so a bit of a bummer if mislabeled, but we'll see... hopefully someone here might chime in and say yay or nay or Satomi can verify soon.

Are you on facebook groups for neos? I think I read on here that that's where everybody migrated to in neo circles (among other hobbies)...
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2019, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post

Are you on facebook groups for neos? I think I read on here that that's where everybody migrated to in neo circles (among other hobbies)...

No, I am not on Facebook.

If that growth were to replicate via offsets, that is where the value of your plant lies and it is huge. Your whole plant is totally confused and might not have a legitimate name.

You should be happy with what you have. Itís no bummer.

Last edited by Shoreguy; 05-23-2019 at 09:46 PM..
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  #7  
Old 05-24-2019, 01:37 AM
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Honestly, from what I can see, I don't have a huge issue with it being a Suruga-fukurin, albeit one that's shifted a bit outside of its usual stability. This isn't unheard of even in the more stable fukurin varieties, although some are certainly more prone to it.

However, the plant also does resemble a Nishidemiyako too, so I'm not 100% sure without being able to examine it in person. It would help immensely though to have brighter, larger photos, including ones that show clear top views to show the leaf width, side views, closeups of the stem, closeups of the aberrant young growths etc. Precise identification of neo varieties often lies in the small details.

Other than that, specific characteristics such as leaf width, leaf posture and the pattern that the anthocyanin pigmentation presents itself on the stem, doesn't quite match most of the other alternatives that you have proposed.

On the other hand, there is a variety that has mutated out of Suruga-fukurin that has additional green streaks at the edge, in a sanko-nakafu configuration called Suruga-Sansai, but your plant doesn't quite fit the characteristics of that quite yet.

Satomi should of course be the authority in this case because she has seen your plant in person and she may realize that it might have been mislabeled. If she says it is something else then of course take her word for it, but from what I can see in this photo without examining it in person, It's really hard to say anything definitive.

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoreguy View Post
I'm surprised Satomi sold you the plant with that growth since if it replicates itself, she would have been able to register it and reap big rewards.
While it might have been otherwise some 30 years ago, registration is nowadays not that simple. Getting a new variety registered in Japan is more than just discovering a new mutation and putting it up for registration. If it was that simple, there would be over a dozen new registrants every year.

To be registered in Japan, a new variety must be shown to be stable in its characteristics over many years, to be propagable via division, and most importantly it must pass the completely subjective requirements of the registration committee who must deem the new variety a significant addition to the heritage and culture of Neo cultivation through its novel characteristics, through its uniqueness compared to other registered varieties, and through it's popularity and reception among the community.

A naka-fu morph of Suruga-fukurin, while it would be amusing to many, it honestly wouldn't cause that much of a stir, due to the fact that there are a number of other existing varieties that already look similar to what that would look like, especially Manazuru, which is already registered.

Overall, the modern registration committee is extremely strict and picky about what they register, with a strict limit of four new registrations per year (a limit that they usually don't reach), and limiting the registrants to varieties with truly unique characteristics.
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Last edited by Hakumin; 05-24-2019 at 01:45 AM..
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:11 AM
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Thanks shoreguy, yeah I enjoy it that's for sure!

Thanks hakumin for you insight and expertise.

Satomi actually asked for a pic from overhead which I snapped and sent from my phone then silence then she eventually replied with something to the effect of "looks like suruga to me!" lol but she said she will double check with her father.

If you're interested I could take close up pictures of said details and see what you think, but if you feel it looks not far off from suruga fukurin to you with this pic, and certainly with Satomi's email of late, I suppose it's not worth changing the name tag.

My main concerns were the instability of variegation on this one, as I read this variety is pretty stable, and didn't think it exhibits anthocyanin pigmentation, a quality I personally love.

After combing the web even more for clear images of the variety I started to see general characteristics and think that mine probably isn't that far off as initially thought. It appears the variegation can vary in thickness if anything, but really I saw only 1 or 2 examples of other plants that had new growths which reversed variegation or strongly "aberrant" variegation.

out of curiosity I'm wondering if I were to eventually bring this to be shown or to be judged, would the "aberrant" growths/ variegation detract or add to the overall qualities of it as this variety? And yet another question for you, if I were keep in higher light and augment the pigmentation is that considered desirable? (personally out of fear of burning i may just need to keep at medium highest light?)

I'll pm you re facebook, noting your signature here, and curious about how the community is on there as I'm weary of being on fb but at same time value connection to other neo growers...
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post
Satomi actually asked for a pic from overhead which I snapped and sent from my phone then silence then she eventually replied with something to the effect of "looks like suruga to me!" lol but she said she will double check with her father.
In terms of knowledge, I'd definitely trust what her father says, with him being the chairman of the board of the Japan association and all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post
If you're interested I could take close up pictures of said details and see what you think, but if you feel it looks not far off from suruga fukurin to you with this pic, and certainly with Satomi's email of late, I suppose it's not worth changing the name tag.
I would love to see better photos, even if only for admiration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post
My main concerns were the instability of variegation on this one, as I read this variety is pretty stable, and didn't think it exhibits anthocyanin pigmentation, a quality I personally love.
Instability of variegation sometimes does happen, even in otherwise stable varieties. This change can be completely by chance, or it could be due to cultural issues. Some varieties like Nishidemiyako are more prone to it, while others are less so, but there is really no variegated variety that is absolutely 100% stable.

As for pigmentation, the only plants that will never show anthocyanin pigmentation at all are the aojiku varieties. If the stem is mud, like on suruga-fukurin, it can show anthocyanin pigmentation elsewhere in certain conditions. Anthocyanin production is also most prominent during the late fall and early spring when there is a strong swing in temperatures between day and night, as well as when the plant is given excess light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post
After combing the web even more for clear images of the variety I started to see general characteristics and think that mine probably isn't that far off as initially thought. It appears the variegation can vary in thickness if anything, but really I saw only 1 or 2 examples of other plants that had new growths which reversed variegation or strongly "aberrant" variegation.
It's not uncommon for some fukurin varieties to grow new babies that have naka-fu or sanko-nakafu variegation which later revert back to fukurin. However, I do admit that I don't see that much in the examples of Suruga-fukurin that I have seen, but as mentioned before, it's not unheard of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u bada View Post
out of curiosity I'm wondering if I were to eventually bring this to be shown or to be judged, would the "aberrant" growths/ variegation detract or add to the overall qualities of it as this variety? And yet another question for you, if I were keep in higher light and augment the pigmentation is that considered desirable? (personally out of fear of burning i may just need to keep at medium highest light?)
In terms of judging, the aberrant growths on this variety would detract because it is not what this variety is known for. Judging of each specimen in Japanese style judging goes by looking at what the ideal is for each variety and comparing it to that.

In terms of anthocyanin pigmentation, generally there are few varieties where anthocyanin on the leaves outside of the stem would be judged favorably. However, in your own plant, I'd say you should do what you want, and whatever makes you happy. My only suggestion is to increase the light incrementally and don't go too high or you'll cause other problems, even before the plant begins to burn. On the other hand, I see anthocyanin pigmentation as a seasonal trait and generally enjoy it as a fleeting pleasure rather than something to force into a plant.

However, don't forget that Judging in Japan for Neos is extremely different from Western orchid judging. There is no individual judging or scores given to individual plants. Judging is only ever done in comparison to the other plants entered at the same event, and judging is also strictly qualitative with no set quantitative measurements. Judging Neos is really more like entering an Art competition than an AOS judging.

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Originally Posted by u bada View Post
I'll pm you re facebook, noting your signature here, and curious about how the community is on there as I'm weary of being on fb but at same time value connection to other neo growers...
The community on facebook is quite vibrant. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I also have issue with facebook as a whole and I really only use it for the Neo group. However, I've futzed with my settings and preferences so thoroughly that I rarely ever see anything aside from plants on there anymore, even in the general newsfeed.
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Last edited by Hakumin; 05-24-2019 at 12:38 PM..
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