Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?)
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  #1  
Old 09-26-2020, 06:15 PM
MJG MJG is offline
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Female
Default Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?)

This my a Phal bellina 4N that just bloomed. I've been reading and trying to understand what the physical differences are between a diploid and a tetraploid bellina. I understand the chromosome stuff. As I've been searching for other characteristics, I've come up with the comments that 4N bellinas have bigger leaves and are slower growing. Hmph. Can y'all offer additional insight?

Regardless, for me this is a magnificant plant. The leaf that you see in the forefront is 9" long and it's beautiful.







And the photobombed version:

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Old 09-26-2020, 10:18 PM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Female
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Tetraploids tend to have bigger flowers. (It isn't obvious.. until you see a 4N and a 2N next to each other) Often also have rounder, fuller form. Again, you pretty much need a 2N for comparison for it to be dramatic. Both the flower and the plant are gorgeous!
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:22 AM
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The blossoms maybe sturdier, too. More robust, in general.
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Old 09-27-2020, 11:36 AM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Female
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Stunning plant,fabulous pooch.
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:35 PM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?)
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That is very nice! Congratulations! Enjoy that wonderful fragrance!
I love that these are sequential bloomers. It seems that as they get larger, they produce more than one spike, too. Mine bloomed for the first time last year and then this year, it has two spikes.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:32 PM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Female
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafmite View Post
That is very nice! Congratulations! Enjoy that wonderful fragrance!
I love that these are sequential bloomers. It seems that as they get larger, they produce more than one spike, too. Mine bloomed for the first time last year and then this year, it has two spikes.
Fantastic! Yes, this has a second flower developing on this spike but also has second spike forming too. It's wonderful that they rebloom. I'm happy to hear that yours is thriving.

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta View Post
Tetraploids tend to have bigger flowers. (It isn't obvious.. until you see a 4N and a 2N next to each other) Often also have rounder, fuller form. Again, you pretty much need a 2N for comparison for it to be dramatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
The blossoms maybe sturdier, too. More robust, in general.
So it sounds like there are some advantages to polyploidy. Is a tetraploid plant mostly considered a novelty, or is sought after to an extent?

Thanks.
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Old 09-27-2020, 02:46 PM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?)
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I am glad that I finally have one that is thriving, too. This is attempt number three and it has survived three winters so far. The others did great during the summer but could not tolerate the winter temperatures in my home. This one stops blooming when the home temperatures are cool but doesn't die on me.

4N is considered more desirable than 2N. Personally, I tend to prefer the 2N but I do have a few in my collection.

Here is a nice article for you from the AOS:

Brief Look at Polyploidy
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Old 09-27-2020, 03:31 PM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Female
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafmite View Post

Here is a nice article for you from the AOS:

Brief Look at Polyploidy
That's a great article that I hadn't seen yet.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:23 AM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?) Male
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I can't recall his name... I spoke to one of the people with H&R at the Tamiami show a few years ago. We were talking about Dendrobiums. He said 4N Dens (double chromosome count) were slower growers, so not ideally suited for people who want lots of flowers. He said their main utility was breeding to 2N (normal chromosome count) Dens to yield 3N plants. These are almost completely sterile. He said 3N Dens, as a result of sterility, flower much more profusely.

I've noticed a fair number of 3N hybrids offered from various vendors in Cattleya and Paphiopedilum lately. I think this may be the reason. But they won't be able to breed!
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Old 09-28-2020, 07:08 AM
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Phal bellina is in bloom and it's a tetraploid (so?)
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That's very interesting ES, it really shows how far breeding as come.

Unfortunately not everyone is able to count chromosomes and certify the plant they bought is a true 4N, so I wonder how many of those plants are actually what they're sold as.


MJG - Rob Shepherd (Sapphire Dragon Orchids) has done a ton of work on ploidy.

He's written lots of articles but they might not all be available, as several websites hosting them are not active anymore.

It's worth sending him a mail!
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