Too Early to Hazard a Guess About This Paph?

[JMNYC]

Originally Posted by katrina

I've said it at least a thousand times but I'll say it again...trying to ID an orchid via a pic only is a completely unreliable ID. There are simply too many hybrids out there that appear similar/same so feel free to delve all you wish but you are driving yourself nuts over something that is getting you no where.

You've said you have no desire to take your plants to judging...so why the obsession in finding the name info? It's not necessary unless you are getting the plant judged and/or you want to do breeding w/the plant. You know you have a paph...you've obviously grown it very well for quite some time...so why chase the uncatchable?

There are some orchids than can be ID'd via a pic only but that is not the norm and it's usually only w/species. When you start looking at hybrids...forget it. It's never going to be a reliable ID. You might be able to ascertain some aspect of the parentage but you will most likely *never* have a definitive ID.

Hi, katrina! What you say is a given. I've already shared, I have minus 11 desire to know what any of my now 33 Phals are.

But....as I've also shared, in this atypical event re #s 80 and 891....my clear desire is to know something more about it with the thought of then, being able to better abet its journey!

Plus, when finally delved on the net, I was stunned to come upon the hybrids whose images I put up.....which resemble mine almost exaclty. Well, if memory serves.

We shall soon see!

Happy desire to know, to chase data, is a subjective phenomenon. It is also never arbitrary or, in this case, capricious. This....is now a heady mini adventure, and surely nothing to apologize for, given I understand it, and I think, it's All Good!

Also, I get that my new desire to know...esp which species may be in the background, also owes to my new, gestating love for the bulldogs!

Formerly, my very few Paphs were almost an afterthought. That....is now changing!

I also don't think any human is meant to be the arbiter of what any other human is moved to know. But WHY we are moved to this or that....is, I think, always meaningful.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by JMNYC

I also don't think any human is meant to be the arbiter of what any other human is moved to know. But WHY we are moved to this or that....is, I think, always meaningful.

I never even suggested what you should or shouldn't be moved to know. Get moved away all you wish! I simply said it is a futile task. Completely and utterly futile. And anyone that knows anything about identifying orchids will tell you the very same thing.

So, no, I didn't tell you what you should be moved to know but I certainly did ask why the obsession. Why did I ask that? I suppose I'm a little surprised (taken aback, if you will!) to read about all this web searching you are doing. And, for what? To find out the name of something you've described at less than desirable? Quite frankly, after having read much of your writings on the forum, I had imagined you as more well read on orchids and all the complexities involved in identification. My bad.

So, sure....be moved all you wish. Search, search away. Spend countless hours in front a computer screen comparing pics that might not even be labelled correctly. Bottom line...it's not possible to ever be 100% positive of an identification based on googled images. Especially when you're dealing w/hybrids. Like it or not, that's a fact!

[JMNYC]

Originally Posted by katrina

I never even suggested what you should or shouldn't be moved to know. Get moved away all you wish! I simply said it is a futile task. Completely and utterly futile. And anyone that knows anything about identifying orchids will tell you the very same thing.

So, no, I didn't tell you what you should be moved to know but I certainly did ask why the obsession. Why did I ask that? I suppose I'm a little surprised (taken aback, if you will!) to read about all this web searching you are doing. And, for what? To find out the name of something you've described at less than desirable? Quite frankly, after having read much of your writings on the forum, I had imagined you as more well read on orchids and all the complexities involved in identification. My bad.

So, sure....be moved all you wish. Search, search away. Spend countless hours in front a computer screen comparing pics that might not even be labelled correctly. Bottom line...it's not possible to ever be 100% positive of an identification based on googled images. Especially when you're dealing w/hybrids. Like it or not, that's a fact!

I feel REALLY BAD that apparently I failed to explain all of it clearly. I truly did try!!! No part of this new mini passion eludes me, and I did try to delineate all of it accurately.

Nobody else HAS TO get it....I get it.

And katrina, identification need not be exact, just knowing more will help me tend it better.

And, pls note: 'Identification' has been included here as a dedicated forum, despite the inherent limitations of any such journey.

Also, whatever comes my way half dead, I try to save, and I grow with the same devotion as everything else I grow. That I would not have chosen to buy this....becomes moot in the face of that.

I understand all my many passions, including those that present anew. ....I would never try to legislate any.

Again, I thought I explained all of it accurately in response to your initial post....I feel bad I seem to have failed.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by JMNYC

I feel REALLY BAD that apparently I failed to explain all of it clearly. I truly did try!!! No part of this new mini passion eludes me, and I did try to delineate all of it accurately.

Oh please...you have been perfectly clear. You have stated that you believe you will positively ID your paph by looking at pics on the web. I quote>>>

“NOW.....I am positive I will find out what it is! Pretty much. and that, after all these years.....will be thrilling.”.

The process of identifying an orchid is far more complex than anything you can see in just a picture. It involves highly detailed descriptions and measurements of every plant part, every flower part…EVERY. SINGLE. PART…from the roots to the pollinia hidden behind the anther cap. And that’s just to ID a species!

When you dig into hybrids…it becomes far more complicated and messy and there is no way anyone can look at a hybrid…even w/measurements…and tell you it is Paph X. Not unless you are dealing w/the grower/hybridizer of said plant. Hell, even some people who do the crossings sometimes lose their info and/or forget what they have crossed. It happens.

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that most F1 generation plants have a tendency to resemble one parent over another more and most times when a hybridizer is making a cross they are doing so w/a vision of what they are trying to improve upon…color, shape, size, etc. Many times hybridizers have to go much deeper than primary crossing to achieve the vision they have in mind. Complex hybrids are named so for a reason and when you get 3,4,5, or more generations deep you can have so many different species/other hybrids in the mix that the plant can EASILY be misidentified simply due to the complexity of the gene pool.

Look, there is nothing wrong w/a NoID...they are just as beautiful as a named orchid and they can bring just as much pleasure and satisfaction. The only issue w/an “unknown” is the fact that it can never be sent to judging. If you need names then buying from reputable and reliable growers is the only way to ensure an ID of a plant. And, truth be told, wven w/the most reputable of growers and the best of the best…mistakes happen because, well, humans make mistakes but it is certainly far more reliable then looking at pics on the web. The nice thing w/the reputable grower and/or hybridizer him/herself is that they can usually give you the correct ID should a mistake have been made.

What you are doing in this thread (and your phal thread) is positioning your ‘seek and find adventures’ as fact. You are absolutely stating your finds as if it they are definitive and I find it disconcerting. What you believe is all fun and games…stays on the web FOREVER and in 6 months (or whenever) someone else does a search…finds your pics and words…viola!...they think they know the name of their NoID. Again, this behavior only perpetuates an already overwhelmingly serious problem w/in the hobby.

Originally Posted by JMNYC

And katrina, identification need not be exact, just knowing more will help me tend it better.

The very nature of identifying an orchid IS an exact science and to state otherwise is asinine.

As for knowing more…I thought you said you’ve been growing this plant for years. You said it’s grown so well you’ve had to divide it. You’ve bloomed it, right? Sounds to me like you've got it down so what more could you possibly need to know? Especially given the fact you feel that whatever you’re looking for doesn’t need to be exact? If it doesn’t need to be exact then why look at all?

[JMNYC]

Originally Posted by katrina

Oh please...you have been perfectly clear. You have stated that you believe you will positively ID your paph by looking at pics on the web. I quote>>>

“NOW.....I am positive I will find out what it is! Pretty much. and that, after all these years.....will be thrilling.”.

The process of identifying an orchid is far more complex than anything you can see in just a picture. It involves highly detailed descriptions and measurements of every plant part, every flower part…EVERY. SINGLE. PART…from the roots to the pollinia hidden behind the anther cap. And that’s just to ID a species!

When you dig into hybrids…it becomes far more complicated and messy and there is no way anyone can look at a hybrid…even w/measurements…and tell you it is Paph X. Not unless you are dealing w/the grower/hybridizer of said plant. Hell, even some people who do the crossings sometimes lose their info and/or forget what they have crossed. It happens.

Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that most F1 generation plants have a tendency to resemble one parent over another more and most times when a hybridizer is making a cross they are doing so w/a vision of what they are trying to improve upon…color, shape, size, etc. Many times hybridizers have to go much deeper than primary crossing to achieve the vision they have in mind. Complex hybrids are named so for a reason and when you get 3,4,5, or more generations deep you can have so many different species/other hybrids in the mix that the plant can EASILY be misidentified simply due to the complexity of the gene pool.

Look, there is nothing wrong w/a NoID...they are just as beautiful as a named orchid and they can bring just as much pleasure and satisfaction. The only issue w/an “unknown” is the fact that it can never be sent to judging. If you need names then buying from reputable and reliable growers is the only way to ensure an ID of a plant. And, truth be told, wven w/the most reputable of growers and the best of the best…mistakes happen because, well, humans make mistakes but it is certainly far more reliable then looking at pics on the web. The nice thing w/the reputable grower and/or hybridizer him/herself is that they can usually give you the correct ID should a mistake have been made.

What you are doing in this thread (and your phal thread) is positioning your ‘seek and find adventures’ as fact. You are absolutely stating your finds as if it they are definitive and I find it disconcerting. What you believe is all fun and games…stays on the web FOREVER and in 6 months (or whenever) someone else does a search…finds your pics and words…viola!...they think they know the name of their NoID. Again, this behavior only perpetuates an already overwhelmingly serious problem w/in the hobby.

The very nature of identifying an orchid IS an exact science and to state otherwise is asinine.

As for knowing more…I thought you said you’ve been growing this plant for years. You said it’s grown so well you’ve had to divide it. You’ve bloomed it, right? Sounds to me like you've got it down so what more could you possibly need to know? Especially given the fact you feel that whatever you’re looking for doesn’t need to be exact? If it doesn’t need to be exact then why look at all?

Katrina, I am taken aback by first, the intensity of your upset in any of this. For me, what I am moved to in any of this....and why is clear. And again, all good and positive.

The unalloyed desire to learn more....whenever that presents, to me, is always positive and a gift.

I have also shared....while I now have two pots of this hybrid, each jammed with fans, there is only the one new bloom (two bids as usual) emerging from one fan in one pot. My feeling is, learning more about the species involved, might help me keep them happier. Especially, since I've now discovered something which looks almost identical may bed a primary cross.

As we say, to thine own self be true. I am an inveterate seeker and rarely linear in any of it. I get paid to research and share the results, and in many and diverse arenas.

I would never try to convince YOU, katrina to not comport with your very clear, and vociferously stated tenets re any of this!

Again this board has this dedicated Identification forum, that inclusion was not arbitrary, yes?

Whatever I learn in this journey, I already have....despite it may not be a precise identification of this individual hybrid, will be precious.

Perhaps, given the intensity of your upset, you might contact the principals of this community and make a case for just doing away with this forum. If moved, why not? You are surely entitled to your opinions on this! As I am to mine.

As for that I experience all such default data chasing journeys every day as heady: the joy in those journeys, for me, is never antithetical to serious as a heart attack foundation. I am in no way some dilettante.