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  #11  
Old 05-24-2011, 09:34 AM
NiNiDazzle NiNiDazzle is offline
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Powdered MSU Fertilizer Into A Liquid Concentration?
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Thanks Ray. I'll add a tad more water. It's very minimal the amount of particles that is left on the bottom. Next time I make the concentration, I'll use straight hot water instead of half hot then cold. I didn't know if the heat of the water would change anything in the solution and I played it safe.
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2011, 08:34 AM
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When I make up liquids for sale, I use warm RO water.
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  #13  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:49 AM
shadytrake shadytrake is offline
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Jim,

I think the point is to mix the solution because the powders tend to turn to liquid (like Miracle Gro does). Mixing the liquid concentrate keeps an even prepared batch.
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  #14  
Old 05-30-2011, 09:47 AM
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Another advantage of making a concentrate is that of uniformity.

Specialty formulations like the Greencare MSU stuff can be variable in their physical properties, depending upon the raw material source and time of year - dry winters make it easier to grind stuff than than do humid summers.

If you take a teaspoon out of a 2# tub, the final solution formula might not be the same as the "average" for the entire batch. If you make a concentrate and keep it agitated before dispensing, your final solution will be more uniform, application to application.

However, I must say that the MSU stuff I've been seeing lately is far more uniform right from the bag than it ever has been.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:05 AM
DelawareJim DelawareJim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadytrake View Post
Jim,

I think the point is to mix the solution because the powders tend to turn to liquid (like Miracle Gro does). Mixing the liquid concentrate keeps an even prepared batch.
I understand the point. My point is, at least from my own experience, keeping concentrate on hand is more trouble than I find it is worth. Remember Murphy's law; the probability of spilling a gallon of the blue stuff, is directly proportional to the value of the carpet. And, since I don't exhibit in shows or do OAS judging, I don't need to worry that the batch I water with on May 30th is not exactly the same as the batch I mixed on April 20th. I also use it fast enough that I don't need to worry about it absorbing moisture and melting.

Cheers.
Jim

Last edited by DelawareJim; 05-31-2011 at 08:13 AM..
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Old 06-01-2011, 12:04 AM
Zoi2 Zoi2 is offline
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Quote:
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Remember Murphy's law; the probability of spilling a gallon of the blue stuff, is directly proportional to the value of the carpet.

Joann
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  #17  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:27 PM
alternety alternety is offline
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I want to buy some granular MSU. Over months of prowling about web sites I had found some information on which brands were finely ground and thoroughly mixed and those that were not. Which I have promptly lost.

Does anyone have some experience with different vendors in the homogeneity of the mix?
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  #18  
Old 06-29-2011, 08:02 AM
DelawareJim DelawareJim is offline
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I always get mine from Ray.
https://www.firstrays.com/cgi/cart/c...exact_match=on

Cheers.
Jim
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2011, 05:17 PM
alternety alternety is offline
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I have some powdered MSU. But I am being confused trying to make a concentrate using the calculator on First Rays. I have two uses. SH and outdoor container plants.

I want to make a concentrate. My plan: 1 lb of MSU to 3 pints of hot water. Per posts above, I now have a solution of 1/4 of the 17% available N - hence 4.24% N.

Now I go to Ray's calculator to figure out how much of the concentrate to add to a gallon of water for a final mix. I enter 4.25 into the box for the initial concentration of N. I have tried multiple permutations of watering and feeding frequency. I do not understand the purpose of these numbers and the results confuse me. The number that is causing me the confusion is the calculated ppm of N. I don't understand what that means. My initial guess was that it is some sort of cumulative dose. But the numbers it generates do not really appear to me to be doing that. And I really don't understand what it is really useful for.

I asked the calculator to tell me how much of the material (concentrate) to add to a gallon of water to give me the default 125 ppm. It seems to be really concerned only with that calculated ppm. Not the 125 target.

Particularly for SH I have problems understanding why a cumulative number (if that is what it is) would make any difference since it is flushed at each watering/fertilizing event.

It is not clear to me that the calculator is actually working as intended. Just for jollies I took the Dyna-Gro number (7%) and used that. Knowing the recommended application rate for weekly use. If I say 1 watering and 1 flush a month, the calculated values go out of range. Using 4 waterings and no flush I get 1.43 tsp/gal. The label says 1/4 to 1 tsp/gal depending on indoor/outdoor and frequency.

Can someone please give some basic understanding of what is/should be done and what the results from the calculator really mean? Understanding that this is not a really precise thing.
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Old 08-12-2011, 09:52 PM
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I am a bit confused by part of this. it seems you are trying to take every fertilizer recommendation out there and turn them into one "unified theory"---good luck!

There are two calculators on the page. One takes the fertilizer formula and the amount you're adding to a gallon to tell you the TDS of the macro elements in the final solution. The other is used to take the nitrogen concentration of the fertilizer you have, and using your targeted final concentration, tell you how much of that to mix up to get it.

If you are starting with a 4.24%N concentrate, and want 125 ppm N in your final concentration, the calculator at the bottom of the page recommends roughly 2.25 teaspoons per gallon.

Think of the concentration as a "calorie count" for the "meal" you give your plants. Think of the frequency of feeding as the meals provided.

With no claim of what is "right", I like to feed the 125 ppm N solution to S/H plants at every watering. That does not mean the plant takes it all up, it just means that's the supply. By replenishing it frequently, I am more-or-less assured of a "constant" nutrient supply for the plants. If I only fed once a month, I'd have to multiply that concentration to provide that same "supply", but there is a limit to how much a plant can take, so a little, frequently seems to be a better approach that an infrequent overdosing.

Concerning the Dyna-Go recommendation, the range of addition jives totally with the frequency-of-feeding example I just gave. What doesn't jive is the concentration recommendation.

At 7% N, if you want 125 ppm N in the final solution, you will - indeed - need to mix up the 1.43 tsp/gallon. That is cold, hard science, nothing else.

The 1/4 - to 1 tsp/gall rates are 23 ppm N to 92 ppm concentrations. Again, a simple calculation that cannot be debated. If you want to use the 1/4 teaspoon concentration and provide the same MASS of nutrition as the 125 ppm level, you'd have to feed 5 times as often.

The bottom line is this:
  1. Plants need a certain mass of nutrition to thrive.
  2. Mass provided is equal to concentration x frequency.
  3. Nobody knows exactly what mass a particular orchid needs, so it makes sense to keep an adequate supply available, and let the plant decide what it needs.
  4. One needs to apply some level of reason to that - watering once a month is like starving and binging; many small "meals" is more reasonable (and won't poison the plant with too high of a concentration of mineral salts).
  5. What constitutes that appropriate "mass" is - to a great deal - a matter of opinion. Dave Neal (owner of Dyna-Gro) is a believer in very little nutrition, as he feels it fosters new root growth to search for more food (we have discussed that extensively). My opinion after almost 40 years of growing is that environment determines the root growth, and that food should be sufficient to foster the health of the plant.
So basically, it's up to you how much you want to feed, and how you want to do it, but infrequent, highly-concentrated "meals" should be avoided, just as they should be for you and me.
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