Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[FairyInTheFlowers]

It is nice to see you chime in here Rob!! I have a feeling you have a lot of knowledge that has yet to be tapped!

EDIT: Lol, I just realized after posting this that that was a HUGE understatement!!! I can't even start to imagine all that you know!

[orchidsarefun]

lol ......there really is a dearth of info about ploidy out there. Someone needs to write a book or develop a college course or something.
I am still trying to find out if you can self a 3N and get viable seed ! Is there a possibility of getting any 2N or 4N progeny from this selfing ?
I lament about the knowledge that is lost when an expert passes on. I was speaking to a world-famous paph breeder and his kids were not at all interested in continuing the business.
I recently bought some species paphs that were being sold off by a widow. Some of them date back prior to 1983 ! ( there are a couple of REALLY old ribbons ! ) Her kids were not interested in taking any...

Cody and Bob, you will have to "keep the faith" even though life ( as in college and ...love... and work ) will soon catch you up !

[zxyqu]

With regards to a 3N x 3N cross, it depends really. More than likley, a few, and a very few at that, of the seed will possibly be viable. In general 3N plants are pollen infertile, but some seed is possible. However, selfing them will still result in 3N plants if ANY survive. 3N plants should only be used as pod parents, and that's if AT ALL used in breeding, because this creates further ploidy issues (lovingly termed crapaploids). This is another problem with people creating 4N plants and not knowing it, as breeding with them only results in issues if a 2N plant is later bred with it.
Therefore, I really encourage anyone wanting to do colchicine treatments etc, find a way/person to confirm 4N status later on. That way you know what you're working with. Juts my opinion.
Also, as to compiling all this, we could ask that we create a sticky for some of this information.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

... I lament about the knowledge that is lost when an expert passes on. I was speaking to a world-famous paph breeder and his kids were not at all interested in continuing the business.
I recently bought some species paphs that were being sold off by a widow. Some of them date back prior to 1983 ! ( there are a couple of REALLY old ribbons ! ) Her kids were not interested in taking any...
...

Harold Koopowitz in his book "Orchids and Their Conservation" also comments on and laments the loss of important collections when their caretakers pass.

[orchidsarefun]

all it takes is a leap of faith.........after all we may still be propagating seeds around the mother plant if it weren't for some enterprising individuals.
We do however need a cheap plant chromosome counter......urgently. If the hobbyist got that, breaking boundaries would happen quicker.

[zxyqu]

A lead of faith maybe, but from my point of view, selfing a 3N plant is worthless. You can find better potential plants than risk 2 years trying to bloom a cross that may never happen in the first place.

As to chromosome counting, it's just expensive and time consuming given what has to happen to count them. However, we are working a short cut to weed out the potential 4N to lessen the number of counts. This can be done easily by myself and anyone with a microscope. But it's not confirmatory.

[Call_Me_Bob]

i try to stay with known or supposed even ploidys. like if the parentage suggests its 4n (with known 4n parents) ill assume its 4n. likewise with 2n plants.

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by Call_Me_Bob

i try to stay with known or supposed even ploidys. like if the parentage suggests its 4n (with known 4n parents) ill assume its 4n. likewise with 2n plants.

The problem is, I think, that even when you cross two 4n plants, the offspring is not GUARANTEED to be 4n. From what I read, the offspring will sometimes mutate back to 2n (the plant's natural state) as the plant sheds some of the redundant chromosomes.

So even if we do breed two 4n plants together, we'd still have to check the offspring if we want to know for sure.

Originally Posted by zxyqu

As to chromosome counting, it's just expensive and time consuming given what has to happen to count them. However, we are working a short cut to weed out the potential 4N to lessen the number of counts. This can be done easily by myself and anyone with a microscope. But it's not confirmatory.

As for a quick way of sorting into "maybe 4n" and "probably not," I think Rob said on his site that you can take a few cells from the leaf and look at the size of the guard cells. 4n plants will have significantly larger guard cells than their 2n counterparts, so that would give a primary "weeding out" of plants that probably aren't 4n. But then you still need to count chromosomes to be positively SURE. Is this the process you're referring to?

[zxyqu]

Yes, guard cell measurements are this somewhat quick method of weeding out potential 4N plants for future confirmation via chromosomal counting. You take take cells, you actually just take the leaf "fingerprint" by peeling off clear nail polish, which fills the cell voids and shows you signs of the guard cells.

While I understand that it is possible for a 4N plant to shed back to 2N, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, and I dont think anyone has actually shown proof of it happening. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is just as safe to assume all 2n x 2n =2n as it is to say all 4n x 4n = 4n. Plants are remarkably capable of increased ploidy, but even ploidy seems to be the best when it comes to breeding.

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by zxyqu

Yes, guard cell measurements are this somewhat quick method of weeding out potential 4N plants for future confirmation via chromosomal counting. You take take cells, you actually just take the leaf "fingerprint" by peeling off clear nail polish, which fills the cell voids and shows you signs of the guard cells.

While I understand that it is possible for a 4N plant to shed back to 2N, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, and I dont think anyone has actually shown proof of it happening. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is just as safe to assume all 2n x 2n =2n as it is to say all 4n x 4n = 4n. Plants are remarkably capable of increased ploidy, but even ploidy seems to be the best when it comes to breeding.

Oh, really? Okay! That's wonderful news! Well, that makes me breathe a bit easier. Less chromosome counting once we actually get a confirmed 4n breeder!

Oh, did you see my post before about having access to the necessary chemicals through my father-in-law's business? I was wondering if it's allowable for me to get whatever chemical you need and then send it to you via mail, or if the postal service really frowns on that sort of thing.

It would make things so much easier if I could get you the chemicals and you could do the counting, since you already have the equipment.