Selfing to achieve 4N breeders

[Call_Me_Bob]

Ill just say i agree with everyone above 2n x 2n + 2n unless a rare oddity occurs.


as for working with phalaenopsis, i know there are a good amount of know 4n cultivars of some species and many more hybrids. it shouldnt be too hard to find 4n hybrids, finding certain species that are 4n would prove to be more difficult, but other species should be relatively easy to find. goodluck!

ps. where in pennsylvania are you? im in the harrisburg area

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by Call_Me_Bob

Ill just say i agree with everyone above 2n x 2n + 2n unless a rare oddity occurs.

as for working with phalaenopsis, i know there are a good amount of know 4n cultivars of some species and many more hybrids. it shouldnt be too hard to find 4n hybrids, finding certain species that are 4n would prove to be more difficult, but other species should be relatively easy to find. goodluck!

ps. where in pennsylvania are you? im in the harrisburg area

Well, hello, fellow Pennsylvanian!

I'm a bit west of Allentown. I went to college in Annville, though, which isn't too far from you!

Anyway, yeah, I've figured out where I went awry now.

As far as finding 4N stud plants...Rob has a list of plants with known ploidity started on his site. It's mostly hybrids, though, so if I wanted to veer way off into the novelty phals arena, that would be a good way to go. I'm more looking to create primary crosses, though. It's going to be a pain in the tush to find many 4N species plants, I think.

I was just on eBay looking at a GORGEOUS amabilis that I suspect is 4N (from the multiple spikes and full flowers) but when I asked the seller if he knew the ploidity of the plant, I got back "Sorry, we don't know."

Bummer.

I just don't want to accidentally cross a diploid with a tetraploid and end up with a triploid. Although I suppose that isn't the WORST thing in the world...some famous and very successful plants are triploid, but ideally I'd want to make something that could potentially be desirable for further breeding.

Oh, who am I kidding? I should just go out and buy a microscope and learn how to visualize chromosomes. We all know that's where this is heading...

[FairyInTheFlowers]

This thread has got me quite excited, as it seems we have many of the same ambitions. My goal is to one day have at least three different tetraploid cultivars of every Phalaenopsis species, as well as converting some of the famous diploid grex into tetraploids. My reasoning is that Phalaenopsis hybrids are split down the middle into tetraploids and diploids, so why not bring the groups together in a logical way. Since its possible to convert diploids into tetraploids, doing so would drastically increase the breeding options available!! Using available diploid cultivars, imagine a cross like amboinensis x amabilis, which would produce some pretty good results, but nothing spectacular to todays standards. Now, using a tetraploid amboinensis, the options to do a similar cross would be endless!!!! Image the size and floriferousness if you were to cross a 4n amboinensis with Cygnus 'Renaissance', Sogo Yukidian, or Join Grace, three of the best, line-bred whites commonly available. This is my future goal -- a complete, tetraploid Phalaenopsis breeding line.

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

This thread has got me quite excited, as it seems we have many of the same ambitions. My goal is to one day have at least three different tetraploid cultivars of every Phalaenopsis species, as well as converting some of the famous diploid grex into tetraploids. My reasoning is that Phalaenopsis hybrids are split down the middle into tetraploids and diploids, so why not bring the groups together in a logical way. Since its possible to convert diploids into tetraploids, doing so would drastically increase the breeding options available!! Using available diploid cultivars, imagine a cross like amboinensis x amabilis, which would produce some pretty good results, but nothing spectacular to todays standards. Now, using a tetraploid amboinensis, the options to do a similar cross would be endless!!!! Image the size and floriferousness if you were to cross a 4n amboinensis with Cygnus 'Renaissance', Sogo Yukidian, or Join Grace, three of the best, line-bred whites commonly available. This is my future goal -- a complete, tetraploid Phalaenopsis breeding line.

Yes, we are definitely thinking along the same lines! Perhaps we should collaborate! Last night I was up until 3:00 in the morning brainstorming about how I could create improved species plants for breeding purposes, because I couldn't find anyone on the web already doing it.

The problem comes in verifying ploidity, of course. Rob has a great tutorial on his site about how to do it using a microscope to visualize the chromosomes. Last night I posted a question in his forum about how expensive of a microscope one would hypothetically need to do this. I mean, if I can buy one at the local hobby shop and find out the ploidity of my phal babies by using a sliver of root and counting chromosomes, bring it on!! If it's going to be a $10,000 investment, erm...perhaps that will need to wait. LOL

But we could at least get in touch with each other and set up a pollen exchange so that we can improve our breeding lines and don't have to "self" all our species plants. I've got a fairly good sized collection of species phals...I'm sure we'd have some in common to start with.

PM ME!!! Now I'm REALLY excited! LOL


Oh wait...I see you're in Canada...I wonder if that would pose a problem with exchanging pollen. Anyone know anything about that?

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

This thread has got me quite excited, as it seems we have many of the same ambitions. My goal is to one day have at least three different tetraploid cultivars of every Phalaenopsis species, as well as converting some of the famous diploid grex into tetraploids. My reasoning is that Phalaenopsis hybrids are split down the middle into tetraploids and diploids, so why not bring the groups together in a logical way. Since its possible to convert diploids into tetraploids, doing so would drastically increase the breeding options available!! Using available diploid cultivars, imagine a cross like amboinensis x amabilis, which would produce some pretty good results, but nothing spectacular to todays standards. Now, using a tetraploid amboinensis, the options to do a similar cross would be endless!!!! Image the size and floriferousness if you were to cross a 4n amboinensis with Cygnus 'Renaissance', Sogo Yukidian, or Join Grace, three of the best, line-bred whites commonly available. This is my future goal -- a complete, tetraploid Phalaenopsis breeding line.

dont forget to include me on the bandwagon of crazy ideas!

Originally Posted by GirlGoneWild

Yes, we are definitely thinking along the same lines! Perhaps we should collaborate! Last night I was up until 3:00 in the morning brainstorming about how I could create improved species plants for breeding purposes, because I couldn't find anyone on the web already doing it.

The problem comes in verifying ploidity, of course. Rob has a great tutorial on his site about how to do it using a microscope to visualize the chromosomes. Last night I posted a question in his forum about how expensive of a microscope one would hypothetically need to do this. I mean, if I can buy one at the local hobby shop and find out the ploidity of my phal babies by using a sliver of root and counting chromosomes, bring it on!! If it's going to be a $10,000 investment, erm...perhaps that will need to wait. LOL

But we could at least get in touch with each other and set up a pollen exchange so that we can improve our breeding lines and don't have to "self" all our species plants. I've got a fairly good sized collection of species phals...I'm sure we'd have some in common to start with.

PM ME!!! Now I'm REALLY excited! LOL


Oh wait...I see you're in Canada...I wonder if that would pose a problem with exchanging pollen. Anyone know anything about that?

PM me as well! being this close it will be easier then for me and Cody, since he is all the way in Canada. the two of us have been scheming and dreaming for quite some time, haha!

Its not too much of a problem to exchange pollen, Cody and I have sent it back and forth no problem..which reminds me...I owe Cody some pollen.

[Call_Me_Bob]

I've been wanting to learn how to count chromosomes too. But I haven't had the time yet. And from what I hear its pretty involved.

Ahh if your ever in the Lancaster area, you have to stop by Little Brooke Orchids! And if your ever in Harrisburg, you have to stop by Fishing Creek Orchids (where I work)!!!

[zxyqu]

I'm learning to right now guys. It's super tricky, and a pain to get the chems you need to spread out the chromosomes. But I'm slowly getting there I think.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by zxyqu

I'm learning to right now guys. It's super tricky, and a pain to get the chems you need to spread out the chromosomes. But I'm slowly getting there I think.

Dear heavens!!!!! The moment you are able to do this for others, I'll be overnight mailing you root-tips all the time for you to count!!!

[zxyqu]

Well there could be a problem with overnighting roots. That's another thing I've got to work out, as you really need to have a fresh root. But Ben and I may have gotten a good idea on that one as well.

[zxyqu]

Rob is also probabaly still finishing up his brand new schnazy looking greenhouse. Looks amazing. I'd say total cost to get started counting is around 2000 bucks. 500-1500 for a good scope, depending on what you can find. You need a 100x oil immersion lens. You'll need about 200 bucks for a camera for the scope (either an eyepeice camera or a camera for a trinocular port). Then it's all the supplies, glassware and stuff. And somewhere along the line you have to get access to someone who can purchase from Sigma. They will not ship to a residence, only a business address with a business that has set up with them. This is where I got stifled.