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  #121  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:01 PM
orchidsarefun orchidsarefun is offline
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GirlGoneWild - nope, I specifically stated that I am not against colchicine used for developing further hybrids. I am against GM in species........if you didn't know that by now

David brought in good points about viral infection. The other thread is interesting and does raise ethical issues around the use of infected plants and whether breeders should test prior to using them as breedstock.
I have asked a vendor about this as well as advertising for sale with ploidy specifically mentioned. It would be nice to see plants for sale with ploidy and a virus clearance. I personally think that it could raise legal problems for the vendor if someone finds out that the ploidy was incorrectly advertised ( though some do ) or the plant is actually infected on purchase, but no harm in asking.
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  #122  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:14 PM
zxyqu zxyqu is offline
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You'd be surprised how breeding 4Ns isn't as much of a very specific market as you think. As Cody mentioned a lot of the great line bred standards are 4Ns. Phal Join Grace is possibly the best current big white, and it's a known 4N. Newer non-fading large yellows are also 4N in general. Taiwanese breeders realized these 4Ns grow bigger and better, when they can screen 1000 at a time from a cross. Once they select a good one, they mericlone the crap out of it, and sell it. Not that all are 4Ns, but it's becoming more and more common, and creates problems if you dont know, or you dont do your homework. (I wish RHS was a bit easier to navigate, but it is free).
With regards to your amabalis comment, most current amabalis aren't amabalis at all but aphrodites. I forget the story, but suffice it to say, someone identified a "new" var of amabalis, "formosana" which has been debunked as an actual aphrodite. However, AOS awarded the clone as amabalis, and thus created a huge problem. The key to identifying a real amabalis is the lip, and it's pretty obvious that some labeled amabalis aren't even close. This is why Peter Lin at Big Leaf Orchid sells an amabalis formosana, but labels it properly as an aphrodite under the description.
A big problem with the species line breeding is the constant fluctuation of what a species is; the separation of violacea into violacea and bellina; the segregation of the pulchra family into pulchra/lueddemanniana/heiroglyphica; and the misidentification of bastianii vs mariea create problems down the line. This is a problem much larger than just ploidy.
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  #123  
Old 12-02-2012, 01:27 PM
GirlGoneWild GirlGoneWild is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orchidsarefun View Post
GirlGoneWild - nope, I specifically stated that I am not against colchicine used for developing further hybrids. I am against GM in species........if you didn't know that by now

David brought in good points about viral infection. The other thread is interesting and does raise ethical issues around the use of infected plants and whether breeders should test prior to using them as breedstock.
I have asked a vendor about this as well as advertising for sale with ploidy specifically mentioned. It would be nice to see plants for sale with ploidy and a virus clearance. I personally think that it could raise legal problems for the vendor if someone finds out that the ploidy was incorrectly advertised ( though some do ) or the plant is actually infected on purchase, but no harm in asking.
Ahh...okay...thanks for clarifying. This has been a rather long and involved thread; sometimes it's easy to forget who said what.

So, theoretically you would not be opposed to, say, recreating primary hybrids as tetraploids by treating the offspring of diploid species plants with cochlicine. But what Rob did with his blue equestris--treating it to create a 4N blue equestris with improved form--that you don't approve of, since equestris is a species plant? Same with the violacea and/or bellina? (I would LOVE a tetraploid bellina or blue violacea for my collection.. *drool*)

Just curious.

I am personally very drawn to species plants and primary hybrids...I think there is tremendous beauty in their simplicity. I would love to get some 4N primary hybrids. I think a 4N Princess Kaiulani would be amazing, and I'm thinking a tetraploid version would grow faster and more vigorously than a 2N plant.

I don't see many people breeding 4N primary hybrids...most of the 4N hybrids out there are super-complex and practically require a flow chart to trace them back to their origins.

Hence why I wanted to create 4N breeder species plants. If you go back to the original post of this thread, you'll see I was asking whether it would be better to convert the original species plants to 4N first, and then breed with those, or whether it would be better to breed with 2N plants and then convert the offspring to 4N.

Most people said it would be easier just to have the 4N breeder plants to start with, because they would guarantee 4N offspring and I wouldn't have to check everything all the time. It seems you would be more in favor of using diploid species plants and converting the offspring, even though it would be much more work.

I do think that the orchid industry is going to be leaning toward using 4N breeding plants in the future. I'm sure many of those will be improved 4N species plants. I have a friend on another forum who is finishing his doctorate and he plans on opening a lab with the goal of producing improved 4N species plants (he was planning this before I said anything, btw...I didn't put the idea in his head).

With all the efforts that go into selective breeding to obtain the best possible form of a flower, it may be inevitable that the industry begins moving toward 4N plants being the new standard.

Last edited by GirlGoneWild; 12-02-2012 at 01:34 PM..
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  #124  
Old 12-02-2012, 04:48 PM
FairyInTheFlowers FairyInTheFlowers is offline
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Ok, so a lot has gone on that I want to comment on, but as I'm hard pressed for time, I want to say one quick thing. Orchidsarefun, its confusing for you to say you are against GM species (you first mentioned that after I said I would treat specie sib crosses), but you are now stating you are fine with colchicine treating (I thought you said for species too, but I see that you just meant hybrids) Anyways, in the essence that I think of GM plants, there are no genetically modified orchids in existance. When I think if a genetically modified plant, I think of a scientist splicing genes from some type of plant and then inserting those genes into another plant, something that doesn't happen in the orchid world. As Jarad already stated, you have species out there that have randomly converted to tetraploids, so it isn't completely unnatural. Treating a species to make them tetraploids isn't really genetic modification, as the genes it has aren't changing, being added, or being subtracted. They are just doubling. (I'm a grammar Nazi, so I apologize for any errors! )
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  #125  
Old 12-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Jayfar Jayfar is offline
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Do 4n Phals actually grow faster, as I've seen asserted in this thread? Or do they typically grow into plants with heavier leaf and sepal substance, but most often grow more slowly than 2n? I thought I'd read the latter somewhere.
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  #126  
Old 12-02-2012, 05:35 PM
FairyInTheFlowers FairyInTheFlowers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayfar View Post
Do 4n Phals actually grow faster, as I've seen asserted in this thread? Or do they typically grow into plants with heavier leaf and sepal substance, but most often grow more slowly than 2n? I thought I'd read the latter somewhere.
From what I understand, they can vary in vigour just like 2's, but since there is double the chromosomes, it allows for a greater extreme so that in some cases you get tetraploid vigour and hybrid vigour together, which can make the plant noticeably larger. I would assume something like the opposite can happen and produce plants with poor vigour.
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  #127  
Old 12-02-2012, 05:48 PM
orchidsarefun orchidsarefun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orchidsarefun View Post
you forget about the following
- the destruction of species habitat
- the prevalence of mericloning
- the natural life-cycle
- examples of what has happened with other species.

I repeat - there is less harm in what I am trying to do, compared to species modification. To me the end doesn't justify the means. There is a BIG difference to unlocking a gene pool of 3Ns, to creating a GM gene pool of species.

I am not saying however that artificial manipulation of hybrids is necessarily a bad thing. It would be interesting if someone actually knew the names of a couple...

GirlGoneWild - see this current article. There are many more, but you get the gist. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Two Mexican states ban GM corn | Health Impact News
I have not changed my view on species GM, whatever you want to call it and the above is still my view. As that great philosopher Sarah Palin once said you can put lipstick on a pig, but you still have a pig
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  #128  
Old 12-02-2012, 06:20 PM
orchidsarefun orchidsarefun is offline
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GirlGoneWild said
"So, theoretically you would not be opposed to, say, recreating primary hybrids as tetraploids by treating the offspring of diploid species plants with cochlicine. But what Rob did with his blue equestris--treating it to create a 4N blue equestris with improved form--that you don't approve of, since equestris is a species plant? Same with the violacea and/or bellina? (I would LOVE a tetraploid bellina or blue violacea for my collection.. *drool*) "

Me approving or not approving doesn't mean a whit but I like to think I don't play fast and loose with what I do believe in. Ironically Rob's 4N equestris poses a problem for me now. Now that I know better. I didn't buy it knowing it was GM - its not advertised as such ( CT or whatever ), but I think knowledge about that fact is implied. Well that deed is now done. I have used it on a 4N hybrid as well as a 2N species, pollination failed on the 2N. The fact that the pollination failed is a good thing and thus preserves the natural order !!!! I am not sure on the 4N as pod is still developing.
Thinking what to do with a living thing is not the same thing as subsequently finding out a piece of clothing you have was made in a sweat factory in Bangladesh. What do you think I should do ?
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  #129  
Old 12-02-2012, 06:29 PM
zxyqu zxyqu is offline
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Ugh, what is wrong with a 4n equestris? Especially if it's from Rob?
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  #130  
Old 12-02-2012, 06:54 PM
peterlin peterlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zxyqu View Post
Newer non-fading large yellows are also 4N in general. Taiwanese breeders realized these 4Ns grow bigger and better, when they can screen 1000 at a time from a cross. Once they select a good one, they mericlone the crap out of it, and sell it. Not that all are 4Ns, but it's becoming more and more common, and creates problems if you dont know, or you dont do your homework.
I did not read the entire thread but the last page. I wish to add that the criteria in cloning is NOT driven by ploidy. Plants are known to have exceptions. There are 4n or close to 4n (between 3n-4n) but breeds well with 4n created by pairing 3n and 2n. You also have Phal Taipei Gold (a 3n created by pairing a 4n white and 2n yellow species) that were cloned in large number - because at that time it was a good yellow.

In the case of Phal Taipei Gold, among the many 3n clones - a mutation occurs. Brother Orchids selected this clone (among many) that has darker yellow and more markings.

The industry will clone 'anything' if there is a market. 2n with many fragrant flowers will sell, or if it has the right color.
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