Question to Phantasm (heirloom Cattleyas and relatives)

[Jan Pahl]

Hi Phantasm, I don’t use a M.P. because I think this could be for the interest of all the forum.

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In my understanding, there is no heirloom Cattleya alliance cultivars that lives in present date that dates before the late 1880 decade.

It that info still true?

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The other question is of personal appreciation, some authors say that heirlooms before 1880 decade are lost because previous that decade orchid growers didn’t have enough experience… I mean they were lost even very soon after the adquisition because of cultural and phitosanitary faults.

Do you think that is 100% true in all cases, or that could be a excuse to not admitting that at least few "previous-1880-cultivars" in some cases actually survived till the XX Century, grow older and die?

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The other question is about "plant overall vigor"

In your opinion, do you think that the more old heirlooms actually living still persist their original "vigor"?

Thank’s
Jan

[kinknstein]

Glad you put this in the forum, I am very interested to hear the answers to these questions.

[Don Perusse]

I don't have any heirloom orchids but you pose some interesting questions. I wish "Mauro" would read this post as he has been growing orchids for 25+ years and has acquired a lot of knowledge about orchids, as evidenced by his post in the Cat. alliance.

[DebsC]

I'm just now seeing this post. (I know, I'm a little slow) As a keeper of many heirloom cattleya, I find this subject very interesting and am disappointed that the discussion has not gone any further.

I agree Don, I bet Mauro would have some input on this subject.

[Jan Pahl]

It is often said that previous 1880 decade, the knowledge about orchid deceases, proper culture an specially virus was so little that plants didn't last for more than lets say 10 to 20 years inside nurseries. Something that changed around 1880 less or more

But I simply can't imagine that at least few plants cultivated before 1880 didn't manage to survive even if we consider lack of proper care like scissors cleaning between plants to avoid passing virus

Orchids can't last for ever, but for me is a mystery when orchids start to progressively lose their original vitality... In some cultivars it seems between 40-60 years to start to lose some previous vitality, but it remains a mystery since very well known cattleyas from the very beginning of the XX century or even older than that still grow very well.

Scientifically speaking, is possible to know how old a plant last based on the cell division rate from different plants with known ages. But I don't know any work on that matter based on orchids.

My guess (and is only a guess), is that depending the species, large orchids in general lives between 40-50 years to no more than 200 years. Maybe Less than that in small species that have to complete their live-cycle very quickly (for example species that lives on small branches).

Following my guess (and I could be 100% wrong) if we consider lets say Vanda, Cattleya, Phalaenopsis and Catasetum... I think Vandas could reach between 150-200 years, Cattleyas could reach between 100-150 years, Phalaenopsis between 50-100 years, and Catasetum I think is around 50 years less or more.

Does anybody else have a guess on that matter?

Jan

[isurus79]

Jan,
While I dont even have a guess as to how long different genera could live, Im wondering about one assumption in your question regarding the longevity of certain plants. Are these plants that you are speaking of ever split? Are you saying that after a certain amount of time every division stemming from one plant will begin to fade or are you only speaking of the core 'mother plant' that grows huge over the years and then begins to fade after some decades even when given excellent care? It seems that if a certain plant is split enough times and sent to enough growers, that it really could exist for.......ever? Maybe??

[Jan Pahl]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Jan,
While I dont even have a guess as to how long different genera could live, Im wondering about one assumption in your question regarding the longevity of certain plants. Are these plants that you are speaking of ever split? Are you saying that after a certain amount of time every division stemming from one plant will begin to fade or are you only speaking of the core 'mother plant' that grows huge over the years and then begins to fade after some decades even when given excellent care? It seems that if a certain plant is split enough times and sent to enough growers, that it really could exist for.......ever? Maybe??

celular age is exactly the same in the core plant or in their subsequent divisions. Aging is a matter of how efficiently new cells can divide or do their "factory" job.

look this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by Jan Pahl

celular age is exactly the same in the core plant or in their subsequent divisions. Aging is a matter of how efficiently new cells can divide or do their "factory" job.

look this

Telomere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting. So would this apply to clones as well?

[Jan Pahl]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Interesting. So would this apply to clones as well?

Yes.

[treefrog]

The oldest orchid I believed I've seen is a Vanda tricolor grown at the Montreal Botanical Garden which is more than 80 years.....It is enormous, multiheaded and very floriferous.

Math