Homemade fertilizer

[BlakeeBoo]

My chemistry teacher helped me with figuring out nitrogen and phosphorus amounts in the guano. Bat population's diets stay amazingly stable over a long period of time and so does the make up of there guano.

I wasn't planning on using banana or coconut water if that is what you are talking about.

[Ray]

Out of curiosity Blake, what analysis did your chemistry teacher arrive at?

[BlakeeBoo]

This surprised me to be honest it was about a 30% nitrogen 30% phosphorus and the rest was organic matter (Mostly proteins that brown bats can't digest. The species that occurs around me feeds strictly on insects which are very high in protein) and very small amounts of certain trace elements. I thought it was going to be a lot more organic material and a lot less of the stuff i was looking for (N and P), but hey it works out in my behalf.

[BlakeeBoo]

Are there any polyatomic ions that a formed by N and P alone or in conjunction with other elements?

[Ray]

I think you need to study that chemistry a bit more. In the guano, neither will exist as ions. Secondly, if "the rest" was mostly organic matter, including proteins, your analysis is way off, as proteins typically contain a fair amount of nitrogen, and occasionally phosphorus, too, which you apparently disregarded.

Have you paid attention to the melamine in Chinese baby formula problem that's been in the news a lot lately? When stuff like milk, baby formulas, some pet foods, and the like are tested for protein content, the simplest testing is simply to look for the nitrogen content. As melamine is loaded with nitrogen, it appears to boost the protein contents in the 'eyes" of that test.

[violacea]

BlakeeBoo,

Not sure if you are asking if we have N+ or NO3+ (hey, shouldn't this be negative?) or whether PO5 exists as such or in ionic form - probably phosphoric acid radicals. I'm not a Chemistry teacher [I taught Physics for yonks, and Biology is my hobby] so would also be quite curious about the answer.

The face of Chemistry has changed. I discussed photosynthesis with a Bio teacher and was shocked that everything I had learned was over-simplified, and the more you do research the more weird data comes out. You know, first this splits up into these ions, and steals an electron here and there, and then the electron goes off to attach itself elsewhere, and there is a water molecule (neutral) clinging onto one of the radicals all the while this is happening.

Or maybe I remembered all that wrongly!!! Teachers are so used to dishing out info that they can be rotten absorbers.

I think, Blake, you are wondering if the N-P-K that we feed the orchids are going in as N, P or K, all solo, or do they cluster together, or form ions with oxygen (nitrate, nitrite, nitride ..? ) or whatever... Right?

So, does anyone know the answer? If too technical, well we are in the scientific thread of this board, so many some of us can try to understand what is happening.

[violacea]

Originally Posted by orchids3

Organic fertilizers rarely furnish all the nutrients the plants need. It takes time to understand. Most successful farmers and commercial horticulturists are part scientist and are not likely to waste expensive fertilizers or damage the ground they depend on for their living.

I enjoyed this glimpse of your putting the cowpats to work. Used to do that many years back before the cows disappeared and we imported beef and milk.

And while the organic fertiliser rarely gives all the nutrients, we normally keep a few handy. One organic (it was based on pig's blood, and was called Solugene), and a few inorganic (Gaviota-63 and -67) and other brands. And hopefully, the orchids' diet will be better rounded off and they will thrive.

In their natural habitat how well-rounded can their feedings be? I can't imagine the tree branch that holds the epiphytic orchids having all the necessary nutrients. Unless the plant is not totally saprophytic but also a little bit of a parasite?

[violacea]

Originally Posted by BlakeeBoo

My chemistry teacher helped me with figuring out nitrogen and phosphorus amounts in the guano. Bat population's diets stay amazingly stable over a long period of time and so does the make up of there guano.

I wasn't planning on using banana or coconut water if that is what you are talking about.

I think your teacher might have simply used spectral analysis to get the percentages of N and P. Whatever happened to K? Is it not important too? So, to have 30% N may not be cause for rejoicing if it is also attached to some large molecular chain ... or just some large molecule which cannot diffuse into the roots.

So the bat guano may have ammonium radicals, amines, nitrate, nitrite, or just nitride? Or weird stuff which I have never heard of since I studied Chemistry. And how much of this will break down further until they are soluble or absorbable? And how long will they be there before they wash away in the next rain or watering?

These are the thoughts I get when looking at the N-P-K content of commercial fertilisers. Are the numbers referring to available amounts of these elements (which the plant can absorb, and not only take in, but can use for the purposes of growth or health)? Or do they refer to the total count of the element present, including the unused forms of it?

Would your Chemistry teacher know? Or do you have a Biology teacher who might be more familiar with what plants do with the chemicals that go into them?

[Ray]

Plants can only absorb small, ionic species, so a huge complex as a solid must dissociate into those ionic species in solution in order to be of use.

Many moons ago, there was a former chemical engineer in Florida that developed liquid fertilizers consisting of a single molecule that had the correct ratios of N, P, & K, with a variety a trace elements, to boot. I used one formula for about three years, but the business went kaput.

[BlakeeBoo]

Sorry I misspoke about the ions. I will fix that and I know the proteins may have nitrogen or other chemicals that are already factored into the equation but the proteins themselves would have to be broken down or digested before the individual chemicals would affect the formula as themselves. And those proteins can benefit the plants in a different than the the nitrogen alone.