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  #11  
Old 04-29-2020, 08:16 AM
kvet kvet is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray View Post
That primarily applies to the concentrate. A 1 teaspoon-per-gallon dilution isnít an issue. Certainly, Iíd avoid eye contact in any case.
Diluted p-20 effluent got all over my hands a couple weeks ago when I was spraying outdoor non-orchid plants to see if it would work against powdery mildew. I'm hoping for a sixth finger.

Is it the new windex?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
I read a recent article that talked about the use of NIH approved greenhouse disinfectants to avoid shipping contaminated plants if a nursery worker has COVID-19, and Physan was not on the list.

Sorry, I no longer have the article or reference.
Here is one: Approved disinfectants for COVID-19 - Nursery Management

Which links here: List N: Disinfectants for Use Against SARS-CoV-2 | Pesticide Registration | US EPA

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  #12  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:20 AM
Clawhammer Clawhammer is offline
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I worked in restaurants all through high school and college and "quat" sanitizer was ever present in all those establishments. It smelled exactly like Physan-20

In the meantime since I posted this I was able to acquire some bleach and I am using that as my disinfectant now (diluted).

For corrosives it really is all about concentration. It is not a poison or a carcinogen. If it is not burning it is not harming. I agree putting it in my eye or eating it is not a good idea.
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2020, 02:54 PM
thefish1337 thefish1337 is offline
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Originally Posted by Clawhammer View Post
I worked in restaurants all through high school and college and "quat" sanitizer was ever present in all those establishments. It smelled exactly like Physan-20

In the meantime since I posted this I was able to acquire some bleach and I am using that as my disinfectant now (diluted).

For corrosives it really is all about concentration. It is not a poison or a carcinogen. If it is not burning it is not harming. I agree putting it in my eye or eating it is not a good idea.
yes it does smell similar to the quat salt preparations they use to clean down grocery store meat departments. These chemicals have regulated usage and concentrations for these purposes. Physan20 does not. I just think its bad advice to advocate its use as a household cleaner/disinfectant because it's not intended for that. Regular dish soap rapidly inactivates coronavirus...

Taken from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Health effects
Quaternary ammonium compounds can display a range of health effects, amongst which are mild skin and respiratory irritation [24] up to severe caustic burns on skin and the gastrointestinal wall (depending on concentration), gastrointestinal symptoms (e.g., nausea and vomiting), coma, convulsions, hypotension and death.[25]

They are thought to be the chemical group responsible for anaphylactic reactions that occur with use of neuromuscular blocking drugs during general anaesthesia in surgery.[26] Quaternium-15 is the single most often found cause of allergic contact dermatitis of the hands (16.5% in 959 cases)[27]

Possible reproductive effects in laboratory animals
Quaternary ammonium-based disinfectants (Virex and Quatricide) were tentatively identified as the most probable cause of jumps in birth defects and fertility problems in caged lab mice. The quat ingredients in the disinfectants include alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride (ADBAC) and didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride (DDAC).[28][29] A similar link was tentatively identified in nurses.[30] The studies contradict earlier toxicology data reviewed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) and the EU Commission.[31]
Over-usage of quat salts in the home allows these chemicals to build up in the dusts of your home. I personally would avoid that, especially if you have autoimmune issues, skin sensitivities, asthma or anything that makes you susceptible to irritants. The avg age is pretty high on this forum so I imagine most don't care about the potential reproductive harm... but some of us do. Especially for corona virus why not wipe down surfaces with detergent and 10% bleach? its much less persistent and poses less threat to the quality of a home environment.
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2020, 04:52 PM
hypostatic hypostatic is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray View Post
That primarily applies to the concentrate. A 1 teaspoon-per-gallon dilution isnít an issue. Certainly, Iíd avoid eye contact in any case.
The label specifically states that the product is not for human usage. There are several warnings, and as such, it's a good idea to play it safe and avoid exposure. The label also recommends: "Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift"; "Do not enter or allow worker entry into the treated areas during restricted entry interval (REI) of 12 hours". These both refer to diluted working solution.

For reference, here is the label that is registered with the EPA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clawhammer View Post
In the meantime since I posted this I was able to acquire some bleach and I am using that as my disinfectant now (diluted).
For anyone else who wants to do this with regular bleach (6%), you'd want to mix 1 part bleach, with 27 parts water.
If you're using the higher concentrated bleach (8.25%), you'd want to mix 1 part bleach, with 38 parts water.
These are both recipes to get to the 0.21% Bleach solution, from that the paper I cited in my previous post.
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Originally Posted by Clawhammer View Post
For corrosives it really is all about concentration. It is not a poison or a carcinogen. If it is not burning it is not harming.
Regarding Physan and quaternary disinfectants, you won't see them in many hand sanitizers because of their higher risk/likelihood of causing adverse effects. So if companies aren't willing to take the risk of harming consumers, you should also not take that risk.
The CDC specifically states that "These products are for use on surfaces, NOT humans", and to "follow the label directions for safe, effective use"

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefish1337 View Post
yes it does smell similar to the quat salt preparations they use to clean down grocery store meat departments. These chemicals have regulated usage and concentrations for these purposes. Physan20 does not. I just think its bad advice to advocate its use as a household cleaner/disinfectant because it's not intended for that. Regular dish soap rapidly inactivates coronavirus...
Right -- here, again, I would like to drive home the fact that soap DOES kill/destroy coronaviruses. Soap not only destroys the virus at a molecular level, but importantly, the act of rinsing your hands will flush away any remaining viral particles. Because of this, washing your hands with soap and water is the best way to destroy viral particles, and avoid contamination.
This is why the one of CDC's first recommendations for prevention is to wash your hands frequently.


Physan-20 is specifically contraindicated for human usage. If you care about your safely you should avoid exposure to Physan-20, as recommended on the label.


I'm sorry for such a long post; but in order to do laboratory work with chemicals, we undergo days of training every year in order to learn about how to prevent exposure and protect ourselves. After years and years of having this hammered into me, I feel like it's just not responsible to recommend using a chemical in a way that it's not intended to be used. Especially in a sub-forum about "Scientific Matters"...
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2020, 09:25 PM
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SouthPark SouthPark is offline
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When it is or was relatively cheap and bought them, I had and still have a bunch of isopropyl alcohol bottles, each bottle 250 ml. I use that to spray on things like fuel/gas bowser handles, elevator buttons, door handles, door knobs etc, before I touch them. The bottles just say 99.8 percent isopropyl.
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  #16  
Old 05-01-2020, 10:21 PM
hypostatic hypostatic is offline
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When it is or was relatively cheap and bought them, I had and still have a bunch of isopropyl alcohol bottles, each bottle 250 ml. I use that to spray on things like fuel/gas bowser handles, elevator buttons, door handles, door knobs etc, before I touch them. The bottles just say 99.8 percent isopropyl.
The most efficient thing to do is to actually spray your hands after touching anything dubious -- that way you can touch all the things you want, and THEN disinfect your hands directly.

Spraying your hands directly is fairly important because the most important thing when disinfecting is contact time. You need to wait anywhere from 30s to a few mins of the disinfectant touching an item before the item is safely disinfected. This is why you see "contact time" listed in the EPA's table. If you do it the other way around, you have to wait every single time, which can cause problems in public. Also, strangers don't always take kindly to you spraying an unknown substance onto surfaces that they are going to touch next haha

So if you're spraying something with IPA, and touching it directly after, there's some chance that you're getting "live" contaminants on you.

And again, it's important to stress that this particular virus cannot infect humans through skin contact. But it can infect someone if they touch a contaminated surface, and then touch their eyes/nose/mouth. This is why it's important to train yourself to not touch those areas in public -- "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2020, 10:34 PM
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Also, strangers don't always take kindly to you spraying an unknown substance onto surfaces that they are going to touch next haha
hahaha. That's true hypo! I had so far been doing this at work, when there's pretty much nobody there. And when I spray, my hands and fingers are wet with isopropyl for a little while. I have the 'purell' sort of stuff too, just in case.

You're right about those precautions. That virus is quite formidable.

Interestingly, even though I'm a person (human) and on our side - the people's side, I recently thought (and thought of this before lots of times in the past) ---- that the virus is certainly spreading and causing issues for people and among people. But then looked at ourselves too, which also brought up the old (but maybe unoriginal) view from the very old Matrix movie ----- about how humans are pretty much on the same level as virus/bacteria. Doing similar or even much more damage to the earth and the wildlife etc. It's all natural though of course. All part of nature.
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