Hybridising - Courtesy of Lenette Orchids

[Ryan.Walsh]

Wow. You paraphrased me incorrectly without actually quoting me and called me and my whole profession smug, arrogant and full of hyperbole when I was speaking about a scientific subject. I honestly don't know how to respond to such a thing.

If Orchidboard wants scientific input this would be a prime example of how not to respond to it. Question anything, absolutely, but name calling because it hurts your feelings is simply unacceptable.

[Stray59]

Orchidsarefun:
I appreciate that you posted this - I was just about to ask if someone had a table for pod maturity timing and this was just what I had in mind.
As far as the "science versus wives tales" - not going to take sides as I have a college research background, but my Grandmother swears by planting with the moon phases. As I had no reason to question this as a child, I believed it and would have sworn by it also. But, now I don't look at phases - perhaps I should as then I would have a reason to blame the moon for my failures!!!!
It's better than blaming myself after all -
Let's all stay cool and remember that everyone brings their own flavor to this particular dish! Some flavors you may not particularly care for, but the resulting dish is remarkable regardless.
Steve

[Ray]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Just as I believe that science does not have the answer to everything and sometimes personal experience has the upper hand.

I am of the opinion that if experience appears to have the upper hand, we simply haven't learned the underlying science. Not that it is necessary to understand the science, but doing so seems to always open the doors to an even greater understanding.

[orchidsarefun]

I am not sure why a list of take it- or-leave it tips would cause such a reaction.
They were obviously developed over a long period, using practical experience. What's wrong with them sharing what they have learnt ? I am one of those who believes that a huge body of knowledge is lost when an established nursery closes down or a well-known orchid person passes away.

That doesn't mean
1) that I am anti-science.
2) that I will slavishly follow every tip I find, or you have to.
3) I won't try something out if it makes common sense, even if science doesn't "support" it. ( excluding watering with ice cubes )

Not everybody can be, or wants to be, or is a scientist, not everybody cares about the science behind everything......just as an accountant doesn't take it personally if you can't balance a check-book. Geez !

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by Ryan.Walsh

There are lots of beginner tutorials across the web that aren't as unscientific as this one. Here's a great link to a Phytotech Orchid Seed germination pdf for an example. Here's another great tutorial without any non-scientific information.

Great links Ryan, thanks!

How about we all focus on the positive aspects of the links provided in this thread? There is some great stuff here!!

[Stray59]

greengarden:
I have read over the link you posted and several things are somewhat "rule of thumb" or from Lennette's experiences; and that's okay, because I have posted my own experience-based methods as I have found they work for me, but I do like some science behind my methods.
I do have to defend the suggestion of cutting off excess blooms - commercial breeders often do such - and there is a scientific reason to do so. Commercial breeders are after only the best seed and largest pod they can obtain so they will sacrifice the other blooms as they are only sapping the plant of nutrients and this allows the plant to send all it's strength to the pod.
I found this out when I visited Hausermann's in Chicago the weekend after Mother's day. When I entered the Cattleya house I was shocked to see workers were going down the rows cutting off all of the bloom stalks and tossing them into wheelbarrows. I asked why they were doing this. One of the workers said that they had no chance of selling the blooms and they were only draining the plant of nutrients, so they spared the plant the stress and cut the blooms off in order to insure a stronger plant w/ higher quality bloom next season. AND they did not take the time to put any prophylactic on the cuts; they did use a new razor blade with each new plant and then threw it in the wheelbarrow when they moved to a new plant. If you have a clean greenhouse and use the proper preventative measures, you can do such.
I guess what I am saying is that there is often science behind what may seem like wives tales - we should all be a little less ready to jump and spend more time considering that there may be underlying science that we don't understand.
Both of you make good points and you have given the rest of us three websites to utilize - we will make up our minds to consider what sounds good to us; most of us are not so mindless to just follow any website suggestion without long thought and consideration, or we ask the Board for other's opinions.
Thank you both for your input - now, please shake hands and make up! There is enough negativity in the world, lets not bring it to the Board; respect other members and use MANNERS when replying to posts - otherwise we have a site that will just degrade to arguments and name-calling; at that point many of us will find elsewhere to enjoy and I really hope that doesn't occurs.
Thanks again,
Steve

[gravotrope]

The moon phase seems like it might have an effect to me, but my point is...you really can't say it's hogwash without doing something to disprove it.

Think about it like this: millions of years of evolution produced these plants. Their roots are gravotropic, so that means they have a sense of gravity. it would logically follow that they may actually have some sense of tides/moonphases. or may have some sort of mechanism in their growth to sense moonlight which is supposed to be 1/10th as bright as sunlight (on a full moon). I do not know this to be true either way, since in order to make that statement I have to trust what others have said about moonlight that I happen to remember as common knowledge, but also I'm not going to be rude about it.

Not everyone's a scientist, and fact is, there is roughly a large part of the brain that evolved to not care about facts. You don't know either way, so either do a study or don't I don't care, but why would you just call it hogwash when you have no evidence?

The common use of growth hormones might mask the plant mechanism in question, now that I think about it.

[Andrew]

There are plenty of good breeders who spout unscientific twaddle in some form or another. They can leave milk out in the greenhouse for the pixies to drink for all I care so long as the seedlings are any good.

My problem is that "ALWAYS USE QUALITY PLANTS WHEN HYBRIDIZING" is tip number 16 and only gets 2 1/2 lines of explanation.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by ovanoshio

The moon phase seems like it might have an effect to me, but my point is...you really can't say it's hogwash without doing something to disprove it.

Actually, science dictates that the burden of proof for any claims be up to those making the claims. Therfore, its not scientifically accurate to make a statement that the moon phase has an effect on the seeds until it is proven to be so. Otherwise, its just a hypothesis.

[gravotrope]

Point taken, but what I was thinking about but not saying was the farmer's almanac, which purports that plants have some synchronization with the moon phase (not specifically orchids.) Since it goes so far as to say when you shouldn't plant if you want to maximize your yield (without regard to water or food, which to me seem the determining factors,) it seems like what people see and know are only a slice or sample of what's out there.

This is far from a rigorous scientific study, just the result of thousands of years of agricultural knowledge.

I am not a farmer, but I admit something about whatever people use as their "compass" in life. Reason and logic, or myth and creativity. Whatever it is it isn't perfect.

What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.
- Werner Heisenberg

Science has explained nothing; the more we know the more fantastic the world becomes and the profounder the surrounding darkness.
- Aldous Huxley