First Pollination Experiment & Question

[shadytrake]

Well I figure there is a first time for everything.

I watched a pollination demonstration recently so I thought I would give it a go.

Yesterday early morning, I pollinated some of my chids. I figure if I get anything, I'll figure out what to do with the seed pods later (probably send to Meyers).

Tell me what you think:

Zygopetalum 'Blue Bird' x self

Ascocenda Khun Nok Nathakun x Renantanda Hew Mun (both as pod plant and parent plant - terminology?)

Dendrobium aggregatum (a.k.a. Den lindleyi) IOSPE PHOTOSx Den Oriental Smile 'Fantasy' AD/AOS (both as pod plant and parent plant)

Brassoepilaeliocattleya (Toshie Akoi x West Connet Gold) x self

Oncidium harrisonianum x Tolumnia Genting 'Volcano' (both as pod plant and parent plant)

Onc. harrisonianum x Wilsonara Hot Spot (harrisonianum as the pod plant) - I want to try the Wilsonara as the pod plant but I have to wait for the next spike to open.

This one I messed up - Wilsonara Hot Spot x Brassada O-Rang 'Utan' (both as pod plant and parent) Wrong alliances...don't know what I was thinking. Ooopers

Both the Brsa and the Wils have multiple spikes so no biggie.

Question - I have the Haraella retrocalla with 2 spikes and I want to try it too. It is the SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Vandeae, SUBTRIBE Aeridinae.
IOSPE PHOTOS

Do you think it will work with:

Epidendrum Hokulea (Joseph Lii x cinnabarinum) SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Epidendreae, SUBTRIBE Laeliinae. - I really want to try this one as the colors of the Hokulea are SO red and vibrant.

I'm pretty sure it will work with:

Ascda Khun Nok Nathakhun SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Vandeae, SUBTRIBE Aeridinae

and the

Rntda Hew Mun SUBFAMILY Epidendroideae, TRIBE Vandeae, SUBTRIBE Aeridinae

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

You are more likely to get pods from the crosses you made between a hybrid and a species. However, like I said, "MORE LIKELY", it's no guarantee. On the flip side, you may be less likely to get pods from the hybrid x hybrid, again no guarantee.

In the future, a better guarantee is a cross between two different species within the same genus (primary cross), an outcross between two genetically different individuals of the same species, selfings (although many species don't self pollinate), or a sib cross (sibling cross) between siblings of the same species.

If you do succeed with getting pods on any of your plants, do understand you'll have to sometimes wait quite some time for the pods to ripen. For example, Vandaceous plants (Vanda, Aerides, Phalaenopsis, Tuberolabium, Neofinetia, Gastrochilus, Aerangis, etc.) could take up to a year or a year-and-a-half for seed pods to ripen.

There is information out there on seed pod ripening times on the web.

I will also warn you that complex crosses (like some of the hybridizing you're doing) even if they succeed in producing a pod, MAY have complications with seed germination or the embryos or protocorms developing (ploidy issues and other genetic defects that may occur). Be aware of these, but not paralyzed by them.

Lastly, some labs will no longer take on requests to sow hybrids to cut down on costs associated with seed sowing. I've read somewhere on Troy's website, Flask and Established Seedling Sales, and Flasking Programs, that he isn't accepting hybrids anymore, although you can ask.

[shadytrake]

an outcross between two genetically different individuals of the same species,

Can you give me an example of this with 2 plant names? I don't quite understand.

Thanks!

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

An example of an outcross is:

Dracula lotax 'Clownface' x Dracula lotax 'Smiley'

Keep in mind Dracula lotax 'Clownface' comes from a different family line than Dracula lotax 'Smiley'.

you will also see:

Dracula lotax x out

if there hasn't been any cultivar names assigned.

This is provided they are not siblings from the same two parents

But...

Sibling crosses are two plants that come from the same two parents

Let's say Disa uniflora 'Pride' x Disa uniflora 'Red Bonnet' produces offspring and the new offspring are called Disa uniflora 'Ember Bonnet'. So...in this context, a sib cross of Disa uniflora 'Ember Bonnet' would be:

Disa uniflora 'Ember Bonnet' #1 x Disa uniflora 'Ember Bonnet' #2

or you will see:

Disa uniflora 'Ember Bonnet' x sib

Selfings are when you take for example Vanda coerulea and you self pollinate. It would be labeled as:

Vanda coerulea x self

[shadytrake]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Selfings are when you take for example Vanda coerulea and you self pollinate. It would be labeled as:

Vanda coerulea x self

Okay I might have made a mistake in describing the selfings. I pollinated different flowers of the same plant on the Zygo and the Blc, not the pollen to the stigma of the same flower.

So is this still called a selfing? Each pollen taken from one flower went to another flower on the same plant (not the same flower).

I did look up the Ascda and the Rntda and there apparently was one successful registered cross in 1969. Go figure. Maybe I'll get lucky.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

If the pollinia was taken from one flower from one plant, and put into the stigmatic opening of a different flower from the same plant, it's a selfing.

Another scenario of a selfing is:

Placing the pollinia of a flower on one plant into the same flower of the same plant.

If you've found a registered cross that's either the same or similar to the one you made, then your chances of getting seed is better than before.

[shadytrake]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

An example of an outcross is:

Dracula lotax 'Clownface' x Dracula lotax 'Smiley'

Keep in mind Dracula lotax 'Clownface' comes from a different family line than Dracula lotax 'Smiley'.

Okay I think I get it.

I have 3 NBS Phaiocalanthe Kryptonite 'Blood Bath' AM/AOS.

So if say 2 of them bloom and I cross them, that would be an outcross IF both plants were not from the same parent plants?

If they are from the same parent plants (which I suspect they are since I got them from the breeder), they would be a sibling cross, correct?

Are sibling crosses okay or do you get into genetic trouble there?

I bought 3 of these because I wanted to enter the best bloom for AOS judging at some point in the future.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Wow, talk about a curveball.

Okay...

Your three Phaiocalanthe Kryptonite 'Blood Bath' AM/AOS could be clones.

They were either cloned by:

a) division
b) tissue culture

I'm willing to bet if yours are clones they were through tissue culture.

If you can ask the breeder if they're clones or not, it would make it easier to answer.

Beyond this, I can't help you in this situation. If they're clones it is a bit confusing for me as well.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Sibling crosses are okay up to a certain point. Then like any other species on earth, genetic defects start occurring.

Think of it this way, it's plant incest.

It's always better to get as many genetic material going so gene pool doesn't shrink. Genetic diversity ensures the survival of the species in it's ability to adapt or can be the start of evolution.

[shadytrake]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Sibling crosses are okay up to a certain point. Then like any other species on earth, genetic defects start occurring.

Think of it this way, it's plant incest.

It's always better to get as many genetic material going so gene pool doesn't shrink. Genetic diversity ensures the survival of the species in it's ability to adapt or can be the start of evolution.

That's what I thought. Thanks! You have been most informative.

I can't wait to see if I had success or failure. Either way it is a LOT of fun.