Rules and differing opinions
 

I have been informed by the moderators that I am not allowed to talk badly about this forum.
Most members on orchidboard will not be aware of this rule, I am aware of it but I think it is not very democratic.
If I were living in china I might be used to such rules about negative propaganda against the state where they even execute people for such a crime.

But we have people from all over the world on this site, not just from china.
America is a democracy with freedom of speech and I believe an online forum should be the same but I can also see the appeal of running it like china which is of course easier for the moderators.

If the people don't like it they get executed. It works.

Should orchidboard be run the same way is what I want to know. The moderators have told me and they will probably delete this as anti forum propaganda but I want to know what the members think.

Should orchidboard be censoring posts or should open discussions discussing different opinions and point of views be allowed?

of course they should be censoring the things they deem inappropriate or offensive.

Even in America where there is "free" speech you still cant say anything with no consequence.

this is not a state, this is not your house, this is a digital construct of a community and it adheres to the same principals of any society...you exchange certain freedoms for the benefits of living with others.


If you don't want to be here, no one is forcing you, it is not a right to be here. Someone pays for the bandwidth and they have every right to run it as they see fit.

Brian, I suggest you go to the expense and effort of setting up a forum that will mimic this one. Then you can run it the way you see fit.

I'm fairly new here but it seems to me this forum is very liberal compared to most other forums (not just orchids) where I visit. Basically it feels like as long as people are civil to each other the mods will leave you alone. And that's pretty much what the rules say.

If someone came to your house and spoke badly about you, you wouldn't kick them out?

Hi Brian, I'd just like to point out two things. First, you're still acting belligerently and, quite frankly, being racist. Secondly, besides affirming what the other members have said, I would like to address your appeal to "free speech," an ideal that you attribute to the Constitution. Here's the First Amendment, copied word for word: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Orchidboard is not Congress; it is a private entity and thus is legally entitled to moderate posts that are unfounded and seek to smear its reputation (an intent conveyed clearly by one of your earlier posts). If you feel that orchidboard is not the place for you, then by all means, feel free to leave. Have a nice day. :)

I am frankly very glad that you're seeking out to poll the members of OB. I'm the moderator who is dealing with your issues. And I'm darned happy to have you poll the membership to see what others have to say.

From a non-moderator standpoint, WaterWitchin sez:

This is a paid for forum by someone, not a country whether democratic, socialist, communist, etc. As neophyte says, it's a private entity. You can choose to be here or not. Your choice. But you don't get to dictate how the forum is run. And you don't have the right to trash talk its membership. Were I not a moderator, I would have words for you. Unfortunately, it might get me barred from this forum and I don't want that.

As a moderator, I would tell you that you've gone through many personas. It's useless to ban you, because you'll just come back under a different name, with your same old tired skipping trace ISP's. Then we start the cycle over. From a moderator standpoint, you make me tired. And sad that you have nothing better to do.

I hope many more members take the time to chime in and tell you what they think. And the non-moderator part of me ain't wishing you a good day.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

As info, from 2006 by the owner of this board, one of his few rules (in the event one has never seen it) is below:

While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters

i support WW Implicitly and Explicitly

...is there a "kick rocks" smiley?

Well yes, there are a couple...

:llama: and :badh:

The dead horse emoticon is a bit terrifying, to be honest... :P

As others have said, orchidboard is paid for by someone. This forum is about growing orchids, it's not a forum to debate, argue or spread negativity. There are other places on the web for that.

We are all different (as you pointed out) and so is our experience growing. There will always be differences in ideas and opinions with so many members, but that NEVER gives anyone a right to name call, degrade, insult or be unkind to another member. I also think that those guidelines are for life in general, not just this forum.

If you are being unkind or unpleasant, I agree that you should be censored or banned from this forum. This is supposed to be a joyful, happy place for people to talk about their passion, orchids. This is NOT a place where people come to fight or be made to feel small. No one wants to log into their favorite hobby forum to feel bad about what they are reading.

I feel bad that you think unkind behavior is your right. That's not a great stance to have in any facet of life. I think you should reevaluate the way you are looking at this situation and instead of playing the victim, look at how awesome it is that people are willing to stand up to make sure this remains a positive place for everyone, including you. It's awesome that people actually care about the experience we have on this board!! I wish everyone cared enough to protect others from negativity (like the moderators on this board do), what a different world, positive world that would be.

I will get off of my soapbox, but I'm going to close with a quote that I love.

Quote by*Mahatma Gandhi: “Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”

I mean, we’re here to talk about flowers....

When everyone is wrong except you, that should be a tip off of your narcissism. The Board has a kind, generous nature. Your comments are consistently neither. Please spread your malice elsewhere.

Better yet, try to spread some positivity in the world. It's not "you" vs. "us"; it's a community of equals. We try to lift everyone up here. :)

Everywhere you go, there are rules, spoken and unspoken. When you go to a restaurant, when you work for a corporation, when you attend school/university, when you drive a car, when you get together with a group of friends...you follow rules. Every civilization, every association with others is based on rules, spoken and unspoken. Even online, there are rules. Rules provide unity and civility. Reddit communities, online forums, online games...they all have rules.

Even in the USA, freedom of speech is not absolute. If you work for a corporation and post something on social media that is very nasty, you might get fired. If you think no one will discover your online identity, think again...many times others have found the person behind the post. So, some of these rules about being civil can actually protect you and your reputation, just like many of those other rules, spoken and unspoken, protect you from other potential issues out there. I am a believer in logic.

Brian:

Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, nobody has a right to come into someone else's forum, behave badly, and then expect everyone else to be OK with that.

If you look closely at what I said, this is a generic comment about what everybody (or nobody) should expect regarding opinion and behavior. I'm not making an accusation. Talk about orchids, in a way that would not provoke a fight or argument in person, everything should be fine.

Cross that line, it is a different matter. I've gotten whacked on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper by moderators here myself for less-than-polite posts. I probably deserved it, even though I didn't feel that way at the time. Consider such events an opportunity to reflect on your interpersonal skills, or lack thereof. Don't expect a lot of sympathy for failing to reflect, and instead dialing behaviors up a notch.

In general, forum polls tend to be poor, because the creator is biased when creating the questions, so they might give a particular result, or they are incomplete.

In the case of this one, the poll asks if opinions should be censored. I seriously doubt that any of us would like to see that happen. However, I get the impression that the poll ignores the true issue, how those opinions are stated, which is totally different.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you would even want to be a member of a forum for which you have such a low opinion. I'm not voting in your poll, but I will say, if you think the Orchid Board is such a bad place, why on earth do you keep coming here? It seems your only sick motivation is to cause trouble.

This forum is not a "democracy." It is a privately owned entity, and as such, the owner, through the moderators, has every right to determine what is and is not permitted here.

"During this time of world crisis, wouldn't it be better to be a little kinder, even on the web."







'

Trying to explain "how the things we complain about" are the things we could be changing, is fruitless when turned deaf and blind.

Your opinion is still posted, and the so-called 'censorship Nazis' did not delete your post, right? Yes indeed (a no-brainer): Orchidboard has their rules and regulations. But, there is also an invisible universal rule.

Did you forget the Golden Rule? Hate ain't great... I think you lost your cool my friend (but hey, that's just my opinion for what it is worth - and maybe the moderators will delete my pro-forum propaganda talk).

I'd rather hear you "talking" about your orchids than being constantly complaining about others oppinions and principles.
Why don't you do that?
I'm sure if you do it you'll find yourself a lot of new friends around here.:)

Your First Amendment rights are superseded by the property rights of others. If you don't agree, come on my property saying something I don't want you to say. The police I call to remove you may not stop you from saying what you have to say, but you will be saying it as they drag you away. I don't know what you've posted, but I know that I've been in some heated debates here, and I don't pull any punches. But I don't throw my verbal punches at the person, I throw them at the idea I take exception to. And I can say that this is the only online forum I've ever been a member of where I haven't been officially sanctioned. This forum is the most tolerant of less than polite speech I've ever been on.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

I strongly disagree that living a society necessitates giving up rights or freedoms. Rights are innate, and not granted nor taken away merely by virtue of the company one chooses to keep. Society implies government, and government either respects or does not respect our innate rights and freedoms. But when going on to someone else's private property it is quite often the case that you do give up rights in order to have the property owner's permission to be there.

Members, I try hard to steer toward the positive but, I want to make this point: bad attention is better than no attention. Every post we make, every response, is attention directed towards the OP. This is exactly what he craves. To him it's a form of power. My suggestion is that we quit responding to their nonsense and let the fire go out.

Subrosa. What I said was not an opinion. It is a foundational maxim of political science so I am sure I was not clear

The easiest example is this. In the time of cavemen it was beneficial to work together however it required adherence to an order. The simplest of terms no murder no stealing. If you don’t adhere you are killed or exiled. You still have the ABILITY to do those things, you have just given up the RIGHT to do so.

Rights are not innate, they are the agreed upon constructs of a given group.

I am not talking at all about inherent freedom of thought and am not suggesting if it is right or wrong in the moral sense but everyone has “given up” many of the rights they would have on their own for the benefits of the society.
These are what law are. They are what we have determined we don’t want in our society and so we outlaw that behavior.

The right to kill. The right to steal. I do not have these rights

Brian --- the poll says 'should orchidboard be censoring people's opinions?'.

Unless there is a word limit on that question, then that question - as it is right now - isn't concise.

It all depends on what that opinion is, and maybe how it is conveyed or carried across in general.

For example, is the opinion intended to agitate or aggravate, offend/insult, or even lead people astray in an undesirable way? If so, and after some hints from moderators are not taken in, then there is always some consequences to come out of that.

Normally, the users have their choice to do things. But with certain choices come certain consequences.

Owners and moderators are allowed to run THEIR forum as they see fit. You can make your own and run it how you please, but you can't complain about someone elses' when they allow you to join and view for free. Personally, if I don't like a website, I go find another.

seems this post got more responses than any orchid related post on this forum which just enforces my view :rofl:

I was obviously upset at the time about the hypocrisy on this site.
You can post negative reviews about any trader on here, you can post negative reviews about online shops - in order to keep things transparent and not biased

but you cannot post negative stuff about OB. That is all I said.

I haven't read all the comments on here, most just enforce my view that tolerance is at a low here.

I have found a few much better forums with grow info on most species there are and not so much endless chit chat.

Chit chat is great, making friends is great - but that is not what I have come onto OB for.

I - and most others come to OB to learn how to grow orchids better.

There are far better forums for that but this is still the most found and biggest database of orchids out there and I would argue that most beginner orchid growers find OB first.

So why, why, why is OB turning so many orchid enthusiasts into ripping their hair out, shouting at their computer, making posts like these and getting frustrated with one another when we are all supposed to have one united reason to be here - our love for orchids.

I and far too many good growers I have seen banned over the years on OB only want to find out what is best for our orchids. These growers seem to clash too much with people on here that are more interested in chit chat and don't care about learning new stuff.

There should be more tolerance! Too many times it feels like a private club of the usual handful of members and guests are treated like unwelcome tourists.

That is all I wanted to point out but I will leave you one last thing to ponder about.
I have seen every single moderator insult a member on this board. Like you say ghuylar it's their forum they can do what they want.

It happens, to suggest that nobody has ever in their life considered strangling someone would imply they are not human and to me to be a good mod, you need to be human and understand if someone gets antagonised most likely they will lose their temper, especially on an online forum where there are little consequences.
Mods should care more about this forum and understand why an argument has happened.

Too many times I just see the person losing his temper get banned but the person that caused the argument just carries on to go do it all over again a few months later.

If you want to find the perfect example look at post #27 and #28 on this thread Catasetum schmidtianum

:waving
:haveagreatday:

In that case, just listen and learn from us. Ask us sensible questions (and behave in a diplomatic way) ---- and don't teach beginners things that are clearly unsound/unsatisfactory/unsafe (for orchids).

Let us teach you. That is - let us teach you how to grow orchids better (if you're having trouble that is).

If you haven't read them, how would you know?

So you don't want to be part of an online community like this one and have found others that meet your needs. I get it, and that's absolutely fine. Go there and be happy. I can tell you for certain that the several other forums that frequent wouldn't tolerate your behavior either.

Your responses belie that. It's more like "I come here to make my statements and curse and belittle those who disagree."

First, I must ask for your proof that "so many" are "ripping their hair out, shouting at their computer, making posts like these and getting frustrated with one another".

It seems to me you simply want more tolerance of your bad attitude.

I have been a member of this community and several others a long time, dating back to the mid-1980's and the CompuServe Gardening Forum, where a handful of us formed an orchid-focused group. In my opinion, this one is actually one of the more tolerant ones, with fewer folks banned and fewer enfractions given.

Obviously not Again, you are assigning your own extreme reactions to others without knowledge of the facts and have, in my opinion, completely misunderstood Ghuylar's comment. Let's look at this from two sides, with related, hypothetical scenarios:

Case 1: A stranger comes into your bookstore and he starts belittling and cursing at you because of the way you have decorated, keep it clean, or the types of books you specialize in. Would you find that acceptable? I seriously doubt it. You'd probably toss them out the door quickly.

Case 2, from that stranger's point-of-view: {to himself} Cool. This looks like a nice bookstore. I'll investigate.
Where in the world did he get that furniture?!?! Doesn't he ever dust? And who in the world gives a crap about 16th century farming techniques and would dedicate a store to that? {out loud}"Hi, Brian. This is quite a shop!" Then, having decided it's not to his liking, he says "Have a nice day", chooses to leave and does not return.

Most people would handle themselves like the "stranger" in case 2, rather than returning over and over to repeat case 1.

The flaw in that logic lies your definition of rights, and in the fundamental nature of rights. One tenet is that all people possess the same fundamental rights, whether or not the system they live under respects those rights. Since the primary right is the right to one's own life and each person has that right, there can be no right for one person to take the life of another, except in self defense, which is also a basic human right. Same goes for property.

{{sigh}} I will point this out once again. The issue is not about talking trash about Orchid Board as an entity. It is not about a clash of opinions on differing care or culture or even off topic subjects such as rights, be those rights inalienable or not.

The reason for your infraction, Brian, was posting opinions that are rude, insulting, a personal attack or purposeless inflammatory posts toward a member or members.

While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.

With that, I'm closing this thread. You, Brian, have had your poll and your chance to debate the subject. Be here or don't be here Brian. But cease and desist with the inflammatory posts directed toward others.

If Subrosa and DCoconuts want to continue their debate, please either start a new thread or contact me and I'll copy the current debate to a new thread.