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  #1  
Old 10-17-2008, 06:45 PM
kavanaru kavanaru is offline
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Default Psychopsis ID question to "the experts" ;)

Psychopsis papilio, Psychopsis sanderae, Psychopsis krameriana, Psychopsis latourae, Psychopsis versteegiana, Psychopsis Mendenhall, Psychopsis Kalihi, Psychopsis Mariposa, Psychopsis Butterfly, etc...

All are gorgeous plants... but... how do you recognize Who is Who? I mean, most of them look so similar, and sometimes (I have the feeling) the pictures in internet are mixed up...

Is there any link to a "serious" website, with hint for their identification? or does anyone knows which are the differences?

I just receive today a Psychopsis ??? var. alba. I forgot to ask the man at the nursery which species or hybrid it is (no label, but am sure the man knows very well which plant it is ) We were just having a nice long chat, and I forgot to ask.. so, I decided to check in internet and try to give a guess, before calling him tomorrow to ask... and wow! that seems almost impossible to me!
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2008, 09:12 PM
lambelkip lambelkip is offline
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it's probably Psychopsis papilio var. albiflora.

species and hybrids have different name forms, to make it easier for people to recognize which are hybrids and which are not.

for species, it's a capitalized genus name, followed by a lower case species name, and in some cases followed by a variety name. example:
Psychopsis papilio var. albiflora

for hybrids, it's a capitalized genus name, followed by a capitalized grex name, followed by a cultivar name in single quotation marks. example:
Psychopsis Mendenhall 'Hildos'

if a hybrid was registered with a species-style name like 'var. alba', it might confuse some people who would assume it was a species, so it's unlikely that registration of such a name would be approved.

all of the Psychopsis species and hybrids are very similar. if you have one without a label, it may be impossible to identify. you can look at the pictures on Internet Orchid Species Photo Encyclopedia and read the descriptions to find which is the closest match, but you generally won't be able to tell if it's the species or a hybrid of the species.
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2008, 02:54 AM
kavanaru kavanaru is offline
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Hi lambelkip, thanks for your reply but I think you have misunderstood my question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lambelkip View Post
it's probably Psychopsis papilio var. albiflora.
hhmmm.... how can you know? I have also seen alba hybrids

Quote:
Originally Posted by lambelkip View Post
species and hybrids have different name forms, to make it easier for people to recognize which are hybrids and which are not.

for species, it's a capitalized genus name, followed by a lower case species name, and in some cases followed by a variety name. example:
Psychopsis papilio var. albiflora

for hybrids, it's a capitalized genus name, followed by a capitalized grex name, followed by a cultivar name in single quotation marks. example:
Psychopsis Mendenhall 'Hildos'

if a hybrid was registered with a species-style name like 'var. alba', it might confuse some people who would assume it was a species, so it's unlikely that registration of such a name would be approved.
thanks for the reminder My question was more how to identify a plant... the nomencalture is clear, but even though with a label, how can you be sure it is what is written if all plants are so similar? (appart of trusting your vendor) I was interested more in phenotypic details of each species (they must be there, otherwise they would all be the same species!)... something like for example differences in the "callus" on the labellum...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lambelkip View Post
all of the Psychopsis species and hybrids are very similar. if you have one without a label, it may be impossible to identify. you can look at the pictures on Internet Orchid Species Photo Encyclopedia and read the descriptions to find which is the closest match, but you generally won't be able to tell if it's the species or a hybrid of the species.
I have also reviewed IOSPE, but it does not help a lot with this genus. For example, it is written for Psychopsis papilio: "...arrying a single, apical, rigidly erect, oblong to oblong-elliptic, obtuse, dark green mottled with purple or red leaf that...", but I have seen plants with plain green leaves in the wild (as this especies grows in the region where I grew up) and also cultivated, as well as many hybrids with mottled leave (I have Mendenhall and Kalihii, and both have mottled leave).
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2008, 11:32 AM
lambelkip lambelkip is offline
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[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavanaru View Post
Hi lambelkip, thanks for your reply but I think you have misunderstood my question...

hhmmm.... how can you know? I have also seen alba hybrids
I can't know for certain, you didn't post pictures or a description of the plant. the only Psychopsis species I know of that has an alba form is papilio. The only hybrid I know of that has an alba form is Mariposa (which is a hybrid of papilio)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavanaru View Post

thanks for the reminder My question was more how to identify a plant... the nomencalture is clear, but even though with a label, how can you be sure it is what is written if all plants are so similar? (appart of trusting your vendor) I was interested more in phenotypic details of each species (they must be there, otherwise they would all be the same species!)... something like for example differences in the "callus" on the labellum...

I have also reviewed IOSPE, but it does not help a lot with this genus. For example, it is written for Psychopsis papilio: "...arrying a single, apical, rigidly erect, oblong to oblong-elliptic, obtuse, dark green mottled with purple or red leaf that...", but I have seen plants with plain green leaves in the wild (as this especies grows in the region where I grew up) and also cultivated, as well as many hybrids with mottled leave (I have Mendenhall and Kalihii, and both have mottled leave).
IOSPE has the official description of the species, which contains all of the information that can be used to distinguish between them.

All hybrids will have some of the characteristics of the parents, so Kalihi and Mendenhall have inherited the mottled leaves from papilio. since all Psychopsis species are similar to start out with, hybrids may look so much like one of the parents, that they're impossible to tell apart without genetic testing. there is also some overlap in the regions where the different species grow, so there's a large number of naturally ocurring hybrids. the plants you saw in the wild may have been a different species, or one of the natural hybrids. you just have to trust the grower, or the label on the pot, and realize that it may be wrong.
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2008, 11:46 AM
kavanaru kavanaru is offline
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I agree in your point of view, these are dificult species... I was looking more for the botanic taxonomist items that has been decisive to separate them into different especies (and of course hybrids are always a mix)... need to check further...

P.S.- trust me, the Psychopsis papilio I saw in Venzuela with l^plain green leave are not hybrids that^s the only species growing in that region... so no chance for hybridization
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  #6  
Old 10-20-2008, 05:06 PM
kavanaru kavanaru is offline
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...and I finally managed to take a picture of the flower... here it is I love the callum of these flowers...
Attached Thumbnails
Psychopsis ID question to &quot;the experts&quot; ;)-psychopsis-2-jpg   Psychopsis ID question to &quot;the experts&quot; ;)-psychopsis-1-jpg  
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2008, 07:15 PM
shams shams is offline
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Congrats on your butterfly Ramon! I have the Mendenhall one now, and had a papillio before..... I can't tell any of them apart.
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  #8  
Old 10-21-2008, 12:02 AM
gixrj18 gixrj18 is offline
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Yes Ramon, they are very hard to identify. The only one I have noticed with distinct similarities (out of all the ones I have seen) is Pyp. papilio. Most of the papilios I have seen tend to have a white chest plate, but who knows if that would apply with an alba? I don't know any websites, but let me know if you find one. By the way, love the alba! I just got one ,two weeks ago....if you get the chance, look at it in the pitch dark, with a little bit of distant light shining on it. It looks bright as a street lamp! Lights up the whole area!
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  #9  
Old 10-21-2008, 02:29 AM
kavanaru kavanaru is offline
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Well, I called Mr. Gunzenhauser yesterday evening in order to clarify the ID of this plant. Unfortunately (I forgot he had told me that) his wife told me he had left yesterday morning to Vietnam and will be back mid November.. so, I will have until them...

On the other hand, this all made me curious and I decided to do some research on the topic. I have sent messages to 2 friends of mine, who have access to scientific libraries, asking them to get some scientific publications about this genus, including the original descrotion of all 5 species. If they can compile these papers and send them to me, I will prepare a summary and publish it here it will be like doing some homework from my University time
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  #10  
Old 10-21-2008, 07:05 AM
gixrj18 gixrj18 is offline
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Good luck!
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