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  #11  
Old 10-18-2015, 07:48 PM
NYCorchidman NYCorchidman is offline
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OMG!!!

This is a great piece of information.
I never knew about it.

I wonder though, if cooking for long enough time (if it's done with slow cooking) to completely cook the beans, the toxin will still remain??

I just had taco soup for dinner, but added canned kidney bean. Canned beans are completely cooked as far as I understand, so I did not bother to cook much at all.

I guess I'll find out in one or three hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by estación seca View Post
It's the red beans of species Phaseolus vulgaris that cause the most trouble. White beans have a third of the toxin, and broad beans (Vicia faba) still less:

US Food and Drug Administration on Kidney Beans

Note that the toxin can be destroyed by cooking at boiling temperatures. Raw red beans are quite toxic, with only 4-5 beans able to cause symptoms. Who could eat them dry and hard? But apparently people have soaked them until soft, then eaten them.

Cooking at temperatures below boiling - for example, in slow cookers - makes them MORE toxic.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2015, 07:58 PM
estación seca estación seca is offline
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What matters is the temperature reached, not the time. If it's not hot enough, the toxin will not be broken down no matter how long the cooking.

The link says many slow cookers don't ever reach the boiling point. Commercial canned vegetables are usually cooked past the boiling point so those beans should be safe.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2015, 07:59 PM
NYCorchidman NYCorchidman is offline
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I guess you answered my question above.
so you have to cook them GOOD!

I normally buy canned beans because they can be used right away without having to be soaked overnight ( a few hours will do, but I usually just leave them in water over night to soften up GOOD).

One time, I remember I did not do this.
I was sort of in a hurry and wanted to make soup.
I soaked beans (pinto beans or something like that) for about four hours, not soft all the way, but I tossed in the soup and cooked for at least 40 min.
The beans were still a bit hard as I was eating the soup.
I don't remember but I think I got some headache and stomachache.

It's interesting that the toxin intensifies with rising temperature and then gets destroyed at higher point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieC View Post
Actually it was white kidney beans they were poisoned with, however the toxin gets worse with cooking before it get's better. If partially cooked but not thoroughly cooked they are worse than raw, and even though the White Kideny beans are better than the red if cooked incorrectly they can still be bad. As I understand it they have to reach a certain temperature for a certain amount of time for the toxin to be destroyed, cooking them without reaching that temperature intensifies the toxin.

What they think happened is that they had frozen them raw, then threw some still frozen into a casserole before cooking it. They think the beans never got hot enough, hot, but not hot enough. Apparently they had thrown them in fresh in that way before, but starting from frozen they didn't cook enough
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  #14  
Old 10-19-2015, 07:59 AM
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My educated guess is that it's not that the toxicity increases with rising temperature, but that it's simply in a more accessible form. Raw beans are not very digestible, so the digestive track can't extract the nutrients (or toxin) very easily. By (under)cooking, the beans become more palatable and the nutrients (and toxin) are easier to absorb, leading to the increased toxicity.

As to your question about broccoli being toxic, yes it is extremely toxic, but only to non-specialist insects and plant pathogens! Broccoli and all other members of the Brassicaceae (mustard, radish, rocket, cabbage...) contain glucosinolates. When the plant is damaged the glucosinolates react with an enzyme which produces mustard oil glycosides, and which give broccoli/cabbage/mustard their typical smell and sharp taste. Glucosinolates can cause problems in humans, usually but only at ridiculously high doses. But at the usual doses that we eat these at, research actually shows that they they are likely beneficial (potential cancer preventing effects). The exception is for people with thyroid problems, certain glucosinolate breakdown products interfere with thyroid function, but this is only a problem when the greens are eaten raw.
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:28 AM
NYCorchidman NYCorchidman is offline
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Hi, Camille!
Thanks for the info.
How's The Netherlands treating you?
Must be a haven for a plant scientist?

Speaking more about broccoli, I am not completely sure if it was broccoli or kale ( Russian Red Kale, yummy!!!) that I grew in the garden grew pest free most of the time, but some season, there was a huge attack of this tiny little white moths on the underside.
They are so annoying.
Also, this white butterfly that we call Cabbage White Butterfly in Korean ( dont' know in English but they seem pretty common here as well), which is a major pest to cabbage, the nappa cabbage type that are most popular in Korea. It is rather sweet tasting, so that might be why these butteflies feed on them, or they might be the specialist bugs.

I normally don't mind some holes on the leaves caused by bugs because that tells me that the veggies are grown without the use of harsh chemicals.
But I also read somewhere that certain plants when attached will produce toxin to prevent further damage by whatever is causing the damage on them.
So, I wonder if cabbage family is something that does this? and eating "damaged" plants might have higher dose of toxin in them??
Do you know about this?

Also, regarding cooking, I read that broccoli and mustard green sort of veggies will have increased amount of "good stuff" in them when cooked a little bit, but too much cooking will destroy most of them.
This kind of sounds like the toxin in the beans we talked about.
I tend to focus on nutrients content in mind when cooking, but certain dish are made with more focus on the taste.
Like this winter classics from Germany that I love.
It is very simple but great tasting!
I would cook pork with some spices. then I would add kale and cook until kale turn brownish.
They really taste good this way, but it takes over one hour depending on the portion size I'm doing.
As much as I love the taste, sometimes I wonder if this cooked to death kale would have any good stuff left in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camille1585 View Post
My educated guess is that it's not that the toxicity increases with rising temperature, but that it's simply in a more accessible form. Raw beans are not very digestible, so the digestive track can't extract the nutrients (or toxin) very easily. By (under)cooking, the beans become more palatable and the nutrients (and toxin) are easier to absorb, leading to the increased toxicity.

As to your question about broccoli being toxic, yes it is extremely toxic, but only to non-specialist insects and plant pathogens! Broccoli and all other members of the Brassicaceae (mustard, radish, rocket, cabbage...) contain glucosinolates. When the plant is damaged the glucosinolates react with an enzyme which produces mustard oil glycosides, and which give broccoli/cabbage/mustard their typical smell and sharp taste. Glucosinolates can cause problems in humans, usually but only at ridiculously high doses. But at the usual doses that we eat these at, research actually shows that they they are likely beneficial (potential cancer preventing effects). The exception is for people with thyroid problems, certain glucosinolate breakdown products interfere with thyroid function, but this is only a problem when the greens are eaten raw.
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estación seca View Post
People have been eating borage for probably thousands of years. It tastes something like cucumber. If you ever want a big, hairy, pretty-flowered invasive weed in your garden, plant borage.
Borage = courage, according to my herb book. Maybe that is because it takes a brave soul to dare eat those hairy leaves.

The leaves do taste like cucumber. Our pet bunnies always found Borage irresistible. If the leaves and flowers are toxic, one must need to eat quite a bit of it because a rabbit can eat an entire, mature plant or two and still be perfectly fine. I fed the leaves to my bunnies as treats.
The flowers were often popular for setting in ice cube trays to make ice cubes prettier. Garnishing salads is a nice option, too.
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCorchidman View Post
Hi, Camille!
Thanks for the info.
How's The Netherlands treating you?
Must be a haven for a plant scientist?

Speaking more about broccoli, I am not completely sure if it was broccoli or kale ( Russian Red Kale, yummy!!!) that I grew in the garden grew pest free most of the time, but some season, there was a huge attack of this tiny little white moths on the underside.
They are so annoying.
Also, this white butterfly that we call Cabbage White Butterfly in Korean ( dont' know in English but they seem pretty common here as well), which is a major pest to cabbage, the nappa cabbage type that are most popular in Korea. It is rather sweet tasting, so that might be why these butteflies feed on them, or they might be the specialist bugs.

I normally don't mind some holes on the leaves caused by bugs because that tells me that the veggies are grown without the use of harsh chemicals.
But I also read somewhere that certain plants when attached will produce toxin to prevent further damage by whatever is causing the damage on them.
So, I wonder if cabbage family is something that does this? and eating "damaged" plants might have higher dose of toxin in them??
Do you know about this?

Also, regarding cooking, I read that broccoli and mustard green sort of veggies will have increased amount of "good stuff" in them when cooked a little bit, but too much cooking will destroy most of them.
This kind of sounds like the toxin in the beans we talked about.
I tend to focus on nutrients content in mind when cooking, but certain dish are made with more focus on the taste.
Like this winter classics from Germany that I love.
It is very simple but great tasting!
I would cook pork with some spices. then I would add kale and cook until kale turn brownish.
They really taste good this way, but it takes over one hour depending on the portion size I'm doing.
As much as I love the taste, sometimes I wonder if this cooked to death kale would have any good stuff left in them.

They're also called the White Cabbage Butterfly in English (either the Large White or Small White). These are specialists, and have evolved to sequester the toxins in their bodies so that it doesn't affect them too much (and makes them bad tasting for any birds that may want to eat them).

Tiny white moths on the underside of leaves actually sounds like whiteflies to me, which aren't moths at all. There are also species that are specialists of cabbage, which is probably what you saw.

I think that it's the same for any vegetable- the more cooked it is, the less good stuff is left in it. I steam vegetables as much as possible rather than boil since it preserves the nutrients better. Cabbage isn't as "toxic"(so to speak) when cooked, not because it destroys the glucosinolates, but because it destroys the enzyme they react with. Glucosinolates are only toxic after that reaction. As to the levels of glucosinolates and their toxic breakdown products after attack by insects, yes, they are much higher (I'm actually writing a paper on this topic now for my PhD thesis) than in an unattacked plant. This also applies to tobacco & nicotine, tomato/potato plants & alkaloids, and pretty much for any plant really. Even a lowly lettuce has defensive compounds (in their latex) that it produces when attacked.
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:56 AM
NYCorchidman NYCorchidman is offline
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Great to know, Camille!

By the way, now that also makes me wonder, if the plants produce more toxic compounds when attacked, why do bugs continue to eat them?
Ok, duh, these are the bugs that are born to eat these plants.
Now I wonder, these plants we talked about, are loaded with toxic compounds so bugs in general do not dare to eat them. So the only bugs that will eat them are the specialists that are not harmed by these toxins. Does increased level of toxin help the plants from these specialist bugs at all?
Or are these plants left vulnerable to these bugs?

I wish all the orchids I grow produced some toxins again mealy bugs and mites.
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  #19  
Old 10-19-2015, 09:58 AM
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What an interesting subject! My Theobroma cacao (chocolate tree) seems to kill mealies and scale when they try to colonize it. I have found the dead remains. It is slightly prone to mites but they don't seem to cause it too much damage.
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2015, 10:15 AM
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What an interesting subject! My Theobroma cacao (chocolate tree) seems to kill mealies and scale when they try to colonize it. I have found the dead remains. It is slightly prone to mites but they don't seem to cause it too much damage.
I want GMO orchids with that mealies and scale killer gene!!!!!
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