C Walkeriana

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Both 'Kenny' and 'Pendentive' have received numerous AOS awards as walkeriana - the species. If these have been withdrawn, please supply a link as they are still on the latest AOS awards listing. That, and the breeder ( he has over 30 registrations ) saying its walkeriana, is good enough for me. I realise there is a lot of discussion about the subject but until its official, then that is all it is ?
Meant to add the breeder is also an AOS judge. I don't believe he is going to mislead as what would be the point....

Unfortunately, many American breeders are not up to date with the status of 'Pendentive,' including some very well known breeders on the west coast and many judges. The Brazilians all recognize 'Pendentive' as a hybrid.

'Kenny' still has its FCC, however its name has been changed by the AOS from walkeriana to 'Snow Blind,' which is a hybrid. So this one is official. Considering 'Kenny' is progeny from 'Pendentive,' its a bit strange that the AOS hasn't renamed it as well.

I think you mentioned this post previously, but if my memory is incorrect, here is a post all 'Pendentive' doubters should read: C. walkeriana (not) ‘Kenny’

If you scroll down, catwalker808 is actually Harry Akagi (the H of H&R Nurseries), who is widely regarded as the best breeder of walkeriana and nobilior in the United States. In fact, I can't think of anyone else in this country who is regarded by walkeriana fanatics in both Brazil and Japan as a world class breeder. His word is as "official" as it gets!

[orchidsarefun]

I sent an e-mail to AOS ( I'm a member ) regarding this issue. Let's see what they have to say as I'm curious. If anyone has to set the record straight, its them - including the AOS awards listing that currently shows 'Kenny' and 'Pendentive' as walkeriana. There are no AOS awards for C Snow Blind var 'Pendentive' - well at least reported in OrchidWiz. Snow Blind was registered in 1986 btw, so there has been plenty of time to correct the record, if it has to be.

[Leafmite]

It is weird that the AOS hasn't renamed it if it is a distinct species. There has been so much splitting and renaming lately that I can't see why they missed this one. Until the AOS gets around to changing the name, though, it seems like 'Pendentive' is still technically considered a walkeriana for the sake of naming purposes. Confusing but it is not really orchidsarefun's fault (or that of the breeder's).
The question is, how different do orchids need to be from one another before they are their own species? How many mutations are allowed before an breeding line of orchids becomes a new species? I have seen some species orchids that are very different from the original in appearance after years of breeding for certain traits. What about breeding out a necessary part of a species's survival in the wild, such as fragrance? If a species depends on the fragrance to attract pollinators, how can we say it is the same orchid without the fragrance?
I think, one of these days, the AOS is going to have to decide where they will draw the line.

---------- Post added at 11:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

I sent an e-mail to AOS ( I'm a member ) regarding this issue. Let's see what they have to say as I'm curious. If anyone has to set the record straight, its them - including the AOS awards listing that currently shows 'Kenny' and 'Pendentive' as walkeriana. There are no AOS awards for C Snow Blind var 'Pendentive' - well at least reported in OrchidWiz. Snow Blind was registered in 1986 btw, so there has been plenty of time to correct the record, if it has to be.

It was awarded as a walkeriana 'Kenny' to Seagrove orchids. Then the debate began. I have this one, dolosa and a plain walkeriana, with two Mini Purples thrown into the mix. It will be great to hear what the AOS has to say.
I know our OS has quite a few people that keep up with all the name changes and we've had some speakers that have been judges for a long, long time and it seems everyone is getting fed up with it all. It is a pretty hot topic right now at OS meetings.

[orchidsarefun]

Leafmite - agreed.
Another one that causes just as heated debates over what it is or isn't, is Phal tetraspis vs Phal speciosa; specifically the cultivar referred to as 'C1'. Its relevant to me as I have 2 hybrid crosses which I will eventually register when they bloom and I don't want to confuse the issue even further by registering the wrong parent.

my "walkeriana" has now the most incredible fragrance. I can see why people rave about it....

[Leafmite]

When the time comes to register your crosses, the best thing to do is to ask someone who is current with all the names before you register...or to ask the AOS. That is the only way to be certain.
Some orchid people with whom I have spoken are questioning whether orchids need to be split for every variation or whether, if they are similar enough, they should stay together. It is quite a debate. Mutations happen all the time and with breeding for flatter, larger, rounder, etc. and other such traits and you have many 'varieties' of some species orchids. How differently genetically do orchids need to be before they are in a different group? If the ancestors are all derived from the same orchid but they are unrecognizable as the species, are they still that species? Do we make them a new species or do we just let clone names or terms define them? It will be interesting but with all the breeding that is happening, I think the AOS needs to make some guidelines.

[Aki_James]

I think this is a case of " too many hands in the pot" when it comes to species identification. This has been an issue since the beginning of time. If you do research on any species in any genera you will see list of known synonyms. I think this is what they have been trying to fix with the genetic testing and reclassification they have been doing but I believe they they should just use the keep it simple stupid method.....after all evolution and mutation is infinite in nature. I hope they don't start re classifying humans...I wonder what variant I would be...but in the end I'm still just a homo sapiens even if I don't look like any other member of my species.

[Leafmite]

Agreed.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

It is weird that the AOS hasn't renamed it if it is a distinct species. There has been so much splitting and renaming lately that I can't see why they missed this one. Until the AOS gets around to changing the name....

I could be wrong but I don't believe the AOS is the party in charge of changing names and/or any other taxonomy issue. They follow the lead but I don't think they are the entity that makes the decision regarding these matters.

[orchidsarefun]

I received an 'official' response from AOS ( that was quick ) and I have cut and pasted from the e-mail :

Thank you for your email. I have consulted with one of our foremost experts and this is his reply to your query:

"Cattleya walkeriana 'Pendentive' has clearly been shown genetically to be a walkeriana. That work was done by Yukawa a number of years ago. His work looked very carefully at the sequencing of a large number of walkeriana cultivars and specimens that could be traced back to jungle collection. Pendentive is not, as was speculated, the result of a selfing of 'Orchidglade' but Jones & Scully never really said it was. What they indicated was that it might have but there was no definitive proof. In the sequencing study, Pendentive is very closely related to a white cultivar from Japan called, I believe, Sakura and is likely from a selfing of that cultivar or a sibbing with a sister seedling. Without question Pendentive is a walkeriana.

Kenny, on the other hand is clearly not a walkeriana but is of hybrid origin. It falls in the sequence between dolosa and walkeriana. It is also not a dolosa based on its position on the tree. The closest hybrid that makes sense is C. Snow Blind and as a result the AOS award record has been altered to reflect that. You will find the award to 'Kenny' listed as C. Snow Blind 'Kenny', FCC/AOS. The awards to Pendentive remain as C. walkeriana."

I trust that this clarifies the issue.


Based on the above explanation, my walkeriana IS a walkeriana and not a hybrid. If anything OrchidWiz is incorrect in that it still shows 'Kenny' as being awarded under walkeriana. Maybe their data download can't handle a retrospective data change.
Anyone is free to dispute the AOS response, but obviously the appropriate avenue would be direct to AOS as they are the arbiter of record.

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

update. Bloom is sweetly fragrant. Looks a bit lop-sided as if someone pinched the bud on one side when it was developing, but I will take it. Colour is great.
Hopefully it will be better when it blooms again.......hopefully later this year.

[smweaver]

Very pretty flower. I really like the colors. How long has it been open? Hopefully the segments will expand a little more for you. Congrats on the flowers.