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Go Back   Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web ! > ORCHID ALLIANCES > Cattleya Alliance
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  #1  
Unread 07-07-2013, 12:37 AM
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Default a Lueddemaniana without horns a real life story.

I am from Venezuela (lives in Mexico)

but I always wondered what happens if judges makes a mistake to a plant that is supposed to be an species, but then it happens it is not? can they remove such awards?

this happened already. with Cattleya lueddemaniana "cerro verde" (that is not a lueddemaniana but acording to some experts a primary hybrid of C.lueddemaniana and C. warscewiczii some others say it was crossed with C.gigas)

there was so much talk about it (Back in the days) that it ended up being funny. (even people in Venezuela was making jokes about the "judges" who judged something that was not what they believed).

the main thing (among others) that clearly identify it as a non pure lueddemaniana was the lack of the usual horns in the column that every single lueddemaniana in existence has.

I remember Mantellini , fighting hordes of orchid experts and fans alike, and until today I believe he still claims that the "cerro verde" is a lueddemaniana!

to keep story short, Mantellini crossed it with other lueddemanianas and the seedlings when flowered lacked the horns. he crossed the seedlings with other "pure" lueddemaniana and yes you guessed. no horns. he did a sib cross , still no horns but plant resembled it parent)

so no horns, and I still see it listed with a AM/AOS.
comments ?

PS. being a luddemaniana or not , it is still a beautiful flower, and it is for sure worth of being in any collection

Last edited by palm521; 07-07-2013 at 12:47 AM..
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  #2  
Unread 07-07-2013, 08:26 AM
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Yes, awards can be rescinded.
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  #3  
Unread 07-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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It seems that many Cattleyas sold as species are actually hybrids, even by reputable growers. There are lots of walkerianas that are actually hybrids. The most famous example is the clone "Kenny," which has been relabeled by the AOS as Cattleya Snow Blind. There are a lot nobiliors that have been crossed with walkeriana that are being sold as pure nobilior as well.

I've also seen hybrid intermedias being sold has pure intermedia on a more frequent basis here in the US. Hopefully DNA testing will continue to get cheaper so that the home grower can easily test his/her plants for genetic purity!
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Unread 07-07-2013, 07:20 PM
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Hmm... interesting
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Unread 07-11-2013, 11:59 PM
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Thanks for such a great post! There are many lueddemanniana hybrids out there bought by trusting growers as species and many quite beautiful, but not what you would find in the wild - they are man made creations. Thanks for talking about the horned column. People should know what they have whether it's beautiful or not, IMO. A big part of growing species Catts for me is all the history, the evolutionary story, and how they co-exist with people, their local geographic stories. That goes out the window with hybrids, which I love but for totally different reasons.
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  #6  
Unread 07-12-2013, 01:47 AM
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i am glad you like it ,

now , some people might be asking What horns.. the picture will make things clearer,
a Lueddemaniana without horns a real life story.-columna-clueddemaniana.jpg

,the absence or presence of this wings is a 100% bulletproof way to test if their lueddemaniana are 100% pure. it doesnt matter if it is the larense or the coastal type. all of them has the structure.

hybrids of lueddemaniana will loose those horns, and in the case of Cerro verde clone, you will notice the absence of the structure (or wings) in the tip of the column.

now i wonder why some judges does not look at the easy to find "footprint" of lueddemaniana. (between others that incidentally "cerro verde" was able to bypass" )

for Judges this is a MOST!, specially if a plant is exceptional, or it is about to be awarded they really need to check the column.

there are morphological and taxonomy hints that will also discover a true mossiae or gaskeliana or violaceas from the hybrids , but that is a subject for another thread.

just to name examples there is a bunch of "gaskelianas albas and mossiae albas" that are not species although they are being sold as such


Antonio.
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Last edited by palm521; 07-12-2013 at 01:53 AM..
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Unread 07-12-2013, 10:05 PM
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Yes, it's rampant and judges should question provenance of species more, especially the ones you named. Now I'm curious. How can you tell a true C. mossiae from a close but hybridized one? Thank you for your contribution here. This issue drives me nuts. Good people post Catt species and I always hesitate saying anything when I believe they're hybrids. It's like telling someone their treasured purebred dog is a mutt.
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Last edited by Mokeck; 07-12-2013 at 10:22 PM..
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Unread 07-12-2013, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokeck View Post
Yes, it's rampant and judges should question provenance of species more, especially the ones you named. Now I'm curious. How can you tell a true C. mossiae from a close but hybridized one? Thank you for your contribution here. This issue drives me nuts. Good people post Catt species and I always hesitate saying anything when I believe they're hybrids. It's like telling someone they're treasured purebred dog is a mutt.
Please tell them! Sometimes I feel like a jerk because I'm the only one who speaks up. If I had a I plant that I thought was a species and it was actually a hybrid, I would be forever grateful for the appropriate information. Its like when you get something stuck in your teeth. Only a true friend will tell you that you should get the junk out of your teeth! lol
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Unread 07-12-2013, 10:40 PM
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Thanks for this, Steve. I have spoken up before but when the person doesn't reply, let alone say 'thank you', I assume they're miffed. Like you, I'd rather know than not. And I'm not immune to being on the receiving end of questions - I once posted a beautiful V. coerulea that I was certain was the species but was told by people who would know that it was a hybrid. It took a year or two to agree with them, as I got to know that species better. That's life and I've come to love that plant for what it is, a mostly V. coerulea.
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Unread 07-13-2013, 01:01 AM
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as a rule of thumb, if something is way above average, it is best to raise doubts, this will allow a better education and research methodology, a plant examination by a specialized orchid grower, or a taxonomist / botanical expert might/should be necessary, just make sure you are part of this process as it will form you even as a judge, it is a fun experiment that will test your skills and will allow you to learn more.!!

i can create a small document with empiric facts that is by no means a botanical/taxonomy or science oriented ,(before hand, be sensitive my English is not my native language) but it might help provide some guidelines as to where to look when looking to mossie/gaskelianas. undertanding cattleya species is a group effort, and even if you find something that might prove something good or bad about any given plant, ALWAYS look for other opinions.

a clear example of my ignorance can be seem in here in this forum, with a Brazilian cattleya that was a complex hybrid, (look at the most recent Cattleya Guttata coerulia thread in this forum). i have no knowledge of bifoliate brazilian cattleyas but was able to dig some information out, looking at experts such as C. Keller in brazil and Jerry Fisher at Orchid zone. at the end i learned something useful.

i am not saying that if something is too good it cant be true, there is EXCEPTIONAL cultivars that are REAL and are usually very expensive. for some (including myself) species are positioned at the very apex of the orchid pyramid. (just sharing my personal opinion that is also shared by others).

Antonio.

seedlings Gamble (no mericlones)

chances are that the plants will not improve the parents , but there is a small percentage that the seedling might be even better than the parents, and are usually cheap. .
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