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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:14 PM
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Default Cycnoches luisae (the lost large swan orchid)

Yes, orchids could have their own “sasquash”, and yes, Myths among orchids could be started even by reputable botanist with no more evidence than they own word and a deformed pressed herbarium specimen. making the rest of the people wondering if they have a new species or a new piltdown.

The description of the species back to 1999 with no photos included and the holotype plant died soon after and none saw this “sasquash” again since yesterday on my catasetiane collector friend house, Rafael Vaamonde, owner and discoverer of this new specimen. He called me and for them right now I have this few photos I took with rush with my cellphone mixed with some photos Rafael took by his own

As everyone can see, large swan orchids are quite similar between species specially on lehmanni-ventricosum-warscewiczii-chlorochilon species complex and between species they behaves like a cline (phenotype geographic change more or less gradual with between species “jumps”)... and lusiae as we can see on the photos belongs to this lehmanni-ventricosum-warscewiczii-chlorochilon species complex, specially related to Chlorochilon, also thanks to the two plants of lusiae we known the species inhabits at least some place on the pijiguao area at Guayana Plateau. Since modern botany tends to be more splitter than lumper the tendency tis that hey aren't classified as subespecies or even "demes" but with full species rank, and that's why this particular species have it full species rank even if similarities with chlorochilon and the rest of the complex are quite easy to see.

The main differences with Chlorochilon are.

-) cholorochilon inhabits in Venezuela at north of the Open Savanna "land" that cuts the country in "half" for Cycnones that don't tolerate long dry season even if they start to grow at sea level... Well, Chlorochilon inhabits at coastal range, Andes and other north-western mountainous and more"low land" areas, wile lusiae thrives in the south of this area at Guayana plateau at least at Pijiguao area, making genetic interchange more difficult. The other venezuelan large swan is loddigesii that inhabits the east part of the country from north to south separated from Chlorochilon thanks to Unare depression, other area to much dry for Cycnoches to thrive, and maybe separated from lusiae in the Guayana Plateau on a still to know area, but the thing is that loddigesii known colonies at Guyana plateau are mainly on the east side but loddigesii get close to the area of lusiae and inhabits west Guyana on an area yet to be known.

-) 2nd is the flower size since the two lusiae we know till know have flowers approximately 2/3 or maybe slightly less than the size of average chlorochilon. Also the lip show striking differences, it is notoriously different from Chlorochhilon the fact that is very much less wide than chlorochilon lip, they don't have the edge folds Chlorochilon have, and lusiae don't have the "depression" Chlorochilon have between the "callus "and the "lip-belly",and also lusiae have large amounts of yellow in the first half of the lip that chlorochilon lacks.

-) The other and maybe the more important difference could be related to pollinators and for them a barrier for cross-breading even if Chlorochilon star to appear on "pijiguao" area, the flower odor is very different from chlorochilon, and in a way of speaking much more less complex and much more sweet... it could be described as tutti-fruti and some-how similar to loddigesii

Now playing the role of Devils advocate.. well....to be fair with this description of a "brand new" species among large swans I have to note some things "against" this splitter conception among some of the large swans and in particular in lusiae... first of all lip differences occur on not "ceteris paribus" conditions, let me explain... even if the main lip differences with chlorochilon are quite noticeable, the flower of lusiae is more "dwarf" and for them things like edge folds lackness and other complexity lackness on lusiae lip that Chlorochilon lip have could occur simply as a natural consequence of a more "compact" floral behaviour... why???... because meaningful differences occur wen overall conditions remains the same, which is not the case here, and thus, leaving us size as the main real difference. The other difference between species, the presence of "yellow", could have no relevance at all except as a regional characteristic, and the odor, even if is the main and more noticeable difference that support differences at species level, the fact that they don't smell not even close alike for humans, is not per se proof at all that the main and more important chemical compounds relevant for the pollinator are still the there and are the same for "his" perceptual scopes and relevance, and for them, is attracting exactly the same euglossa bee relative pollinator Chlorochilon could attract......

Ending this little "essay" with a more unbias perspective I have to say that defining what is species even if in concept is quite easy (((a genetic community of similar organisms)), in reality everyone knows is very difficult to put in practice most of the time with very related species.... In the past, tendency inside botany on species classification was lumper except on showy species, and today is splitter except on not well known clades. The main reason is that people today know much more about ecology and they get so overwhelmed with the complexity of relationships between organism and its particular environment, that they get "blind" and see new species raining everywhere with each new adaptation they found... we even know that cryptic species also occur (species only differentiable by DNA), so differences on ecology plotted with plant and flower behaviour even if general phenotype remains the same are taken more seriously. This phenomena easily make forget botanic related professionals and horticulturist like us that even extreme phenotype changes could be related much more to individuality than due the previously “explained”…. Like have blond, red, brown or black hair for an Irish just because gene pool that affect phenotype among Caucasoid people is very diverse.

The thing is that I don't care is something is considered to have deme rank (local race), subespecies rank (boundary new species), or full species rank... the thing is that every living organism have local adaptations that are by itself marvelous, and we as collectors don't have to wait permission from taxonomist to appreciate it and even try to preserve local idiosyncrasy without the need of someone told us the exact "point" in evolution they consider that organism have.

Anther thing is that "I know" some people are thinking about the possibility of a natural hybrid between loddigesii and Chlorochilon because of the odor and the lip shape, but the hybrids I know between chlorochilon and loddigesii don’t look this way, not even close, them for me similarities could reflect parallel evolution on some phenotype traits unless the "hybird" had chancew to evolve.... or if the thing is more ”interesting” than simple “parallel evolution” or introgression, them it may reflect that lusiae is a relict species that “complete” the missing link between the large green swans and the less similar loddigesii… Don’t know, and don't like to speculate to much specially since we are talking here of a NOT known species at all.

enjoy the photos
Jan

Last edited by Jan Pahl; 10-30-2009 at 02:47 PM..
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:44 PM
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Uh?

What fotos?
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:10 PM
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Photos would be nice to see.
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:45 PM
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Here are the photos I forget to upload
Attached Thumbnails
Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-143-1.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-143-2.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-143-3.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-143-4.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-143-5.jpg  

Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-imagen0077.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-imagen0078.jpg   Cycnoches luisae  (the lost large swan orchid)-imagen0080.jpg  
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Old 10-31-2009, 06:39 AM
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Thank you, Jan, thank you very much.
It was impossible to find any photos and proper information about Cycnoches luisae.
You are absolutely right – it reminds a lot of Cycnoches chlorochilon, but the differences you are pointed out are obvious, especially in case of labellum, at least when comparing pictures of them.
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gena View Post
Thank you, Jan, thank you very much.
It was impossible to find any photos and proper information about Cycnoches luisae.
You are absolutely right – it reminds a lot of Cycnoches chlorochilon, but the differences you are pointed out are obvious, especially in case of labellum, at least when comparing pictures of them.
Yes Gena, the info in Internet is quite harsh and right know are less info than few years ago... For example, my first introduction to lusiae was few years ago on a German page that had the most relevant excerpts of the original description (including thanks to God the plates)... But right know that page not longer exist. Rafael knows the people that discovered the original plant, also he knows botanists that manage Catasetinae (including Romero), and that's why he have the ✔✔✔ about it's identity, but in my case since I am "Neophyte" on Catasetinae, and a outsider among orchid societies even if I know some people inside, them I am only sure about its identity only because of course Rafael knowledge about Catasetinae, and because I have a very good memory and I remembered the black-ink plates and corresponds 100% to his plant....

On the other hand the original description was somehow harsh... for example, the original description is not very precise about the yellow "topographic" boundaries, and in the end I ended mixing this with some other peregrine descriptions on internet that clearly said that one of the main differences between lusiae and chlorochilon was that lusiae was a "canary yellow smaller chlorochilon".

This misconception was erased thanks to my friend Rafael.... but Imagine the excitement I had erroneously thinking that out there was a "crypobotatic" large yellow swan orchid as every orchid collector dream about.... Can you imagine the hybrid market "revolution" if a large yellow swan is become available????... I spend years tracking every chance I had possible ones fantasizing on the aesthetic reward of the species, and how could I share pollen for the production of the first experimental hybrids

Last edited by Jan Pahl; 10-31-2009 at 12:12 PM..
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:25 PM
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By the way Gena, talking about conceptual misconceptions..... Here I am standing on one of those "singularities"
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Pahl View Post
By the way Gena, talking about conceptual misconceptions..... Here I am standing on one of those "singularities"
hehe... great pic...
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:09 PM
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Jan, I really enjoyed reading your little "essay"
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Pahl View Post
.... but Imagine the excitement I had erroneously thinking that out there was a "crypobotatic" large yellow swan orchid as every orchid collector dream about.... Can you imagine the hybrid market "revolution" if a large yellow swan is become available????... I spend years tracking every chance I had possible ones fantasizing on the aesthetic reward of the species, and how could I share pollen for the production of the first experimental hybrids
…. If, if it would be possible, Jan!!! It would be sensation … at least!

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Originally Posted by Jan Pahl View Post
Here I am standing on one of those "singularities"

It is brilliant, Jan!!!!!
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