Cycnoches luisae (the lost large swan orchid)

[isurus79]

Jan,
This flower looks to me like the shape of loddigesii and the color of chlorochilon, thus a perfect hybrid! Then the smell of loddigesii points to a hybrid between the two as well. I wonder if this 'species' (which looks great by the way!) will start a debate in the same way that Catasetum xtapiriceps has caused a species versus hybrid debate for that genus. Does your friend who owns this plant have any other that he/she could cross to make more? That would be really great, especially to see if the progeny all look the same or have variability, some looking more like loddigesii and some looking more like chlorochilon.

[Gena]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Jan,
This flower looks to me like the shape of loddigesii and the color of chlorochilon, thus a perfect hybrid! Then the smell of loddigesii points to a hybrid between the two as well.

Steve, such hybrid (chlorochilon x loddigesii), namely Cycnoches Chloroge, is quite well known since it was registered in 1970. It’s looking rather different from pictures shown by Jan. I think, we are talking about a species in case of Cycnoches luisae.
But, on the other hand, no one know what future shows us …..

[Jan Pahl]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Jan,
This flower looks to me like the shape of loddigesii and the color of chlorochilon, thus a perfect hybrid! Then the smell of loddigesii points to a hybrid between the two as well. I wonder if this 'species' (which looks great by the way!) will start a debate in the same way that Catasetum xtapiriceps has caused a species versus hybrid debate for that genus. Does your friend who owns this plant have any other that he/she could cross to make more? That would be really great, especially to see if the progeny all look the same or have variability, some looking more like loddigesii and some looking more like chlorochilon.

Yes and no Isurus… As I noted before they are various also valid reasons why this species could resemble somehow some aspect of Cycnoches x Chloroge even if the rest is 90% chlorochilon without enter the "hybrid" hypothesis, but even accepting that lusiae is “ x chloroge” them we have to accept that to have areal introgretic zone like xtapiriceps, you need large amounts of plants crossbreeding between each other for generations until end with the “true” species on each side with characteristics of the other one and all the intermediates in between… I mean the complete espectrum from “true” pileatums with macro dots on petals until reach "true" macrocarpums that lacks the 3 “Teeth”... something that denotes that even more phenotype-correct plants we don't have any reason to "doubt" their purity, would have genes of the other species that don’t affect phenotype….. This particular "gene flow" case of an geographic area were the hybrid is better adapt than the parents in many different "gene average combinations" depending the "place" is completely missing here with lusiae, we even don’t know if loddigesii thrives in the same area.

If this plant is “x chloroge”, since Chlorochilon is absent in the Guayana Plateau, them it could be the relict remanent of prehistoric cholorchilon populations that “excape” extinction crossbreeding with loddigesii, and them have all the time to evolve in to something else different than x Chloroge..... I mean, I can’t tell you if this “species” have lodigesii genes on it, but I can be sure that if is the case, them is not Chloroge estrictu sensu…. and I am sure people would need more than few x chloroge “experimental” generations to reproduce this particular phenotype.

Edit.

I was thinking about the previous answer and well I noticed that I didn't mentioned anything about the "loddigesii" odor on lusiae.

If you cross for example macrocarpum x pileatum, since both species have similar chemical compounds that defines odor (in fact both species smell somehow similar), them the hybrid will still have a complex odor parental species have.... but what happen wen both parents don't belong to the same fragance "group"... well, wen you cross two species that don't belong to the same fragance group, the chemical compounds that they don't share are "block" and can't metabolize in the hybrid, them the hybrid will have a new fragance defined only by the chemical compounds parental species share.... I mean, a brand new fragance that don't resembles to any of both parental species.

This thing will add more to parallel evolution in lusiae.

[Jan Pahl]

Originally Posted by Gena

Steve, such hybrid (chlorochilon x loddigesii), namely Cycnoches Chloroge, is quite well known since it was registered in 1970. It’s looking rather different from pictures shown by Jan. I think, we are talking about a species in case of Cycnoches luisae.
But, on the other hand, no one know what future shows us …..

Gena, I put here the Cline on this swan orchids, remembering first to the forum that Cline means a gradual change of phenotype (genotype) related to geography... each species representing a Small "jump".

I use loddigesii "forma alba" just to avoid contaminate phenotype expression with a visual characteristic with to much perceptual value for humans, I mean the obvious change to "brown" on loddigesii.

Another thing is that the photos follow not only gradual phenotype change but also geographic change from central america to South america, and From colombia to Venezuela and them the Guyanas

If you or everyone else like to add something... please fell free to do it. i will be delighted to read more

[Gena]

Great idea Jan to take a look at changes caused by geographical situation!
But, if thinking about geography, what we have:
Cycnoches ventricosum – Mexico and Central America (79 MXG MXS MXT 80 BLZ COS ELS GUA HON NIC PAN);
Cycnoches lehmannii – from Ecuador to Peru (83 ECU PER);
Cycnoches warszewiczii – from S. Nicaragua to Panama (80 COS NIC PAN);
Cycnoches chlorochilon – possibly widest distribution of all of them, from Panama to S. Trop. America (80 PAN 82 FRG GUY? SUR? VEN 83 CLM 84 BZN);
Cycnoches lusiae is founded only in Venezuela (VEN 83)
and last one is Cycnoches loddigesii - S. Trop. America (82 FRG GUY SUR VEN 83 CLM 84 BZN).
So, what we can see here is that some species overlapping each other geographically. The question is do they grow in well defined areas separated from similar species in the same region, exactly as you described above? If not, it’s not unthinkable to find primaries there, at least theoretically, don’t you think? That was some loud thoughts from me about Cycnoches Chloroge. But still I can’t see a “hybrid” in Cycnoches lusiae.

[Jan Pahl]

Originally Posted by Gena

Great idea Jan to take a look at changes caused by geographical situation!
But, if thinking about geography, what we have:
Cycnoches ventricosum – Mexico and Central America (79 MXG MXS MXT 80 BLZ COS ELS GUA HON NIC PAN);
Cycnoches lehmannii – from Ecuador to Peru (83 ECU PER);
Cycnoches warszewiczii – from S. Nicaragua to Panama (80 COS NIC PAN);
Cycnoches chlorochilon – possibly widest distribution of all of them, from Panama to S. Trop. America (80 PAN 82 FRG GUY? SUR? VEN 83 CLM 84 BZN);
Cycnoches lusiae is founded only in Venezuela (VEN 83)
and last one is Cycnoches loddigesii - S. Trop. America (82 FRG GUY SUR VEN 83 CLM 84 BZN).
So, what we can see here is that some species overlapping each other geographically. The question is do they grow in well defined areas separated from similar species in the same region, exactly as you described above? If not, it’s not unthinkable to find primaries there, at least theoretically, don’t you think? That was some loud thoughts from me about Cycnoches Chloroge. But still I can’t see a “hybrid” in Cycnoches lusiae.

the problem is that kew gardens name "countries" by herbarium records even if the herbarium records only have 1 plant recorded, and with this complexes of species none manage well, the thing tends to be so messy that you end mentioning countries that don't have the species simply because some botanist didn't double check well the plant in front of his eyes...

For example, Cattleya gaskelliana don't inhabits Colombia or trinidad, Catasetum pileaum can't be found on Trinidad, Guarianthe skinneri don't thrive in Belize, Vanda tricolor is endemic ONLY to Java, and a large etc of well known by botanist "mistakes" but because of internal "policy" Kew have to mention all places true or wrong.... So first, better put in ?? all the countries mentioned.

It is difficult to say with accuracy, but "Colombia" and the south tip of central America (Costa rica and panama) seems to be the junction between the north-south axis with the east-west axis...but is difficult to say exactly were species thrive or if they overlap... Ventricosum seems to be central American species maybe entering the pacific west Colombia were in some place is replaced by lehmanii that seems to be more specialized on more dry forest at pacific Ecuador and North-Perú, in fact both species are quite similar. On the other hand Warscewiczii seems to be more inland in Colombia (and maybe in parts of central America), and Chlorochilon seems to be more Caribean and east Andes located and both species are quite similar. Them is the Guyana plateau and some neighbouring places were lusiae was found and loddigesii fells at home, and we end with haagii that is well distributed from the guyana plateau (at least the south part), crossing the amazon region to the west Andes foothills, maybe all the way to Bolivia