New Cycnoches Advice

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by isurus79

*sigh*

The Dunning-Kruger is strong with this one.

isurus79 ----- I recommend that you skip the troll tactics. You appear to have no issue with practising such tactics.

Recall the time when you blatantly disrespected (and turned the tables around on) the forum member with the name of Early? Click Here.

On that occasion, you did the same thing as here. In that thread, it was clearly you that threw insults. What's your explanation for doing that kind of thing?

Now - unless you have a reasonable answer/explanation that explains the results obtained by us growers that have had absolutely no catasetum root or plant issues when watering emerging roots early (of catasetums coming out of true dormancy), then I recommend that you back off - ie. cease the insults.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

isurus79 ----- I recommend that you skip the troll tactics. You appear to have no issue with practising such tactics.

Recall the time when you blatantly disrespected (and turned the tables around on) the forum member with the name of Early? Click Here.

On that occasion, you did the same thing as here. In that thread, it was clearly you that threw insults. What's your explanation for doing that kind of thing?

Now - unless you have a reasonable answer/explanation that explains the results obtained by us growers that have had absolutely no catasetum root or plant issues when watering emerging roots early (of catasetums coming out of true dormancy), then I recommend that you back off - ie. cease the insults.

The grower Early was exceptionally rude and was the only person in that thread hurtling insults. I stand by my response in that thread.

As for the Dunning-Kruger statement, your statements are matching that syndrome to a tee. As your rhetoric becomes more extreme (stating that your opinion is correct and that growers like myself and Fred Clarke are peddling "misinformation") it becomes painfully obvious that your experience with two seasons of growing complex hybrids (much more forgiving of cultural conditions) has led you to believe that you know more than long time growers. Your opinion far outpaces your knowledge.

I'm not even talking about watering during dormancy, which can be just fine if temperatures stay above 55F (something I've mentioned many times, including on my YouTube channel), which is what Gene Monnier told me many years ago. Your experience with complex hybrids leads you to believe that your results are the norm. However, there are plenty of species that will die if they're watered. The tried and true method of hard dormancy is a blanket statement which works for all species and hybrids, while the idea that watering during dormancy is full of caveats, which you NEVER explain in your descriptions. You also state that you are here to learn, yet you only seem interested in dictating your limited experience as the best way to grow, while everyone else peddles "misinformation." Again, classic Dunning-Kruger.

You also clearly lack a basic understanding of Catasetinae biology and have had ZERO interest in understanding their natural habitat. Many Cycnoches and Mormodes grow in rotting wood and do not need exceptional air circulation around their roots. Many (most?) Catasetums grow in the space where palm fronds attach to the tree, which is a space usually full of water and plant debris, again largely devoid exceptional air movement. You don't care. You keep spouting the idea that Cattleya like conditions around the roots are key, which is not true. While Cattleya-like conditions around the roots can prove successful, its not critical. Hell, its not even ideal, as proven by the success of the PET method in growing monstrous plants and by the natural biology of Catastinae. Again, you have no interest in discussing this and clearly dismiss it as "misinformation." Also classic Dunning-Kruger.

Early watering during initial root growth may be ok for certain complex hybrids, it often proves detrimental for many, many species. Especially Cycnoches, which are much more temperamental than most Catasetum species and are definitely more temperamental than complex hybrids. You gave a list of plants you've grown in the past two years, none of which were Cycnoches. You simply assumed that this genus grows like the other general in the family and gave no caveats for you advice. If had more experience with this group, you'd know that. Instead, you decided that my advice is a "myth," even though its one borne out of experience. I killed many plants in my early years of growing Catasetinae, which was long before it was cool to grow this group and there was little advice online. Instead, you've decided that your experience is more important than mine, and more hilariously, more important the Fred Clarke's. Again, classic Dunning-Kruger.

I'm not saying you shouldn't report your findings, but you don't need to start dictating you limited experience to new or old growers as the new normal. You also don't need to say that long time growers are peddling misinformation or myths. We're not. Finally, you don't need to claim you're here to learn, when its very clear you're here to tell people how to do things. Enough. Seriously, tone it down and please understand you have a lot to learn. That's not an insult, that's just what happens when you've grown a tricky group for a long time. Experience is important. Please start to see it as valuable, not as a "myth" or as "misinformation."

[SouthPark]

isurus79 - poor behavioural form shown in various remarks from you.

I told you before - do some work and put in some time and effort to test and provide an explanation as to why various forum members have found no issues with providing some water to emerging roots of catasetum-type plants (coming out of true dormancy) - without issues to roots or plant. No stunting. No set back.

Also - forget the nonsense about that 'syndrome' thing.

Your current approach in discussions shows poor behavioural form. You need to cut out the petty insults.

You also need to stop fabricating nonsense about the member named Early. You did have a line that you posted from that thread - namely 'coming from a place of ignorance' that you directed toward me (Click Here) ..... which you later removed from your post to try cover your tracks. But it was too late. So you can cut the charade about Early being rude. It was you that was rude and conjuring the nonsense. Turning the tables on an innocent person to incriminate them when you're the culprit --- is undesirable behaviour.

Originally Posted by isurus79

Early watering during initial root growth may be ok for certain complex hybrids, it often proves detrimental for many, many species. Especially Cycnoches

I know at least for fdk, monn, mo, and clo ----- there's going to be no issues. So you can stop spreading the mis-information about early watering for fdk, monn, mo, and clo. And - as for Cycnoches ----- I'll eventually get around to testing a bunch of them too. And my prediction of the future outcome is that Cycnoches will do just fine too.

Originally Posted by isurus79

However, there are plenty of species that will die if they're watered.

That's the mis-information I'm talking about.

Roots are roots. As I previously mentioned in another thread - roots are 'supposed' to be able to handle some water getting onto them.

Originally Posted by isurus79

That's not an insult, that's just what happens when you've grown a tricky group for a long time.

I haven't found the growing of any catasetum to be tricky, and haven't found it to be a 'tricky' group to grow at all. Possibly because they just grow well in the tropics. I do need to look out for spider mites though, and also to not over-water for 100% spaghnum media conditions.

Note these following comments isurus79. I (and other growers) have seen enough times - that watering these newly emerging roots have no negative impact - provided that desirable conditions are met.

The death of catasetum type orchids due to watering too 'early' is very likely due to growers saturating the media (leading to oxygen starvation and rotting of existing roots in the media), or temperature too low - ie. very cold and wet roots.

Originally Posted by isurus79

while the idea that watering during dormancy is full of caveats, which you NEVER explain in your descriptions.

I didn't focus on watering of the plant 'during dormancy', because I have no problem with not watering 'during dormancy'.

I also have no problem with some peoples' recommended method of with-holding watering until roots become 'X' inches long. I have no problem with that. Although, do you recall the time when you told DC that his plant's new growth was dying? But he then went ahead to apply a little water, and the new growth then re-bounded extremely well. Do you remember that? If not - then Click Here. Not only did the new growth recover nicely. The new roots did not die.

I'm merely indicating that if desirable conditions are provided (for catasetum type plants coming out of dormancy) - regardless of hybrid or species - then there's going to be no negative impact on newly emerging roots or plant if somebody puts a little water on the emerging roots.

Also - let me tell you here as well. I predict (and expect) no issues with very light watering of catasetum media ---- very light watering --- DURING dormancy --- provided that a grower doesn't create undesirable conditions such as very cold wet roots, or soggy media where the roots cannot get adequate oxygen.

Now - all those details I mentioned - are testable. Not just by me. But by anybody.

And - just to prove my point, I will test the watering of catasetum orchids of various kinds - very light watering - DURING dormancy - without having very cold roots and without creating conditions that lead to oxygen starvation of roots. I expect no problems.

I know in advance that there is generally no point in watering the catasetums during dormancy - when the orchids have no leaves for transpiration etc. I also am aware in advance that catasetum bulbs can plump up if the roots are watered a little bit if bulbs begin to shrivel - which obviously gives you a hint that catasetums should have no problem with a continued lightly-moist root condition - as long as good conditions are maintained.

But - regardless of whether it is during dormancy, or just coming out of dormancy - I'm telling you that it is no problem to add water (if one WANTED to - out of interest) - PROVIDED that you know what you're doing - as in not allowing temperature to get out of a desirable range, and not allowing the roots to become starved of oxygen, and avoiding fungal/bacterial and pest (eg. snails, in which I fortunately don't get snails over here) activity in the pot.

isurus79 - I'm not doing all of this due to some burning need. It is done out of interest and curiosity - about whether there is any truth to a particular orchid dying as a result of water touching newly emerging roots as it comes out of true dormancy. So far, I haven't encountered any issue whatsoever after trying it out on more than twenty catasetum type orchids - fdk, monn, mo, and clo.

I will cease discussions about this in this particular thread just to avoid going further off-topic (ie. respecting the original poster).

[WaterWitchin]

isurus79 and SouthPark... Enough "discussion" on this thread. Stop hurling insults and arguing on someone else's thread. Please. If you want to volley back and forth with your differing views, do it on your own thread. Either the genus of this topic, or advanced discussions are both suggestions. And I suggest keeping it civil, no insults, just facts and observations. Thank you.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by WaterWitchin

isurus79 and SouthPark... Enough "discussion" on this thread. Stop hurling insults and arguing on someone else's thread. Please. If you want to volley back and forth with your differing views, do it on your own thread. Either the genus of this topic, or advanced discussions are both suggestions. And I suggest keeping it civil, no insults, just facts and observations. Thank you.

I would love to block him. How do I do that?

[WaterWitchin]

Originally Posted by isurus79

I would love to block him. How do I do that?

I'm not positive. Please give me an opportunity to check, and I'll get back with you. I'm still rather new to moderating on this forum. First I gotta go get a layer of dirt scrubbed off my hands.

[JScott]

I only have a few Catasetinae, so I'm not an expert, but I start watering as soon as the new growths start. I grow mine in bark, so it doesn't stay wet as long as those who grow in moss. But once I see new growth, I give it a little bit of water, then let it dry completely, then give it a little more. I slowly increase frequency of watering until the growths are getting big and I can see the new roots growing through the side of the clear pots I use, and then I start watering like crazy. I've never lost a plant this way, never had a plant fail to bloom, never had a new growth rot, never had buds blast. I feel like seasonal changes don't happen all at once, but slowly over a period of time. Once the rainy season starts, it doesn't do so all of the sudden in one day. The showers start out light, and then get heavier and more frequent until you're in full-on rainy season. I'm not a Catasetum expert by any means, but that's how i grow the few that I have, and I've been very successful with them. I think people worry too much about exactly when they should start watering. It's probably not as precise of a science as we sometimes make it out to be.

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by WaterWitchin

I'm not positive. Please give me an opportunity to check, and I'll get back with you.

WW ----- you probably worked it out already. But if not --- go to 'customize profile', then 'edit ignore list'. I didn't know about that feature before - until just a moment ago. I used it for the first time just a moment ago, now with just 1 (and probably going to be the only) person on my list.

[WaterWitchin]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

WW ----- you probably worked it out already. But if not --- go to 'customize profile', then 'edit ignore list'. I didn't know about that feature before - until just a moment ago. I used it for the first time just a moment ago, now with just 1 (and probably going to be the only) person on my list.

Yes, that's how it's done.

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

Originally Posted by JScott

I only have a few Catasetinae, so I'm not an expert, but I start watering as soon as the new growths start. I grow mine in bark, so it doesn't stay wet as long as those who grow in moss. But once I see new growth, I give it a little bit of water, then let it dry completely, then give it a little more. I slowly increase frequency of watering until the growths are getting big and I can see the new roots growing through the side of the clear pots I use, and then I start watering like crazy. I've never lost a plant this way, never had a plant fail to bloom, never had a new growth rot, never had buds blast. I feel like seasonal changes don't happen all at once, but slowly over a period of time. Once the rainy season starts, it doesn't do so all of the sudden in one day. The showers start out light, and then get heavier and more frequent until you're in full-on rainy season. I'm not a Catasetum expert by any means, but that's how i grow the few that I have, and I've been very successful with them. I think people worry too much about exactly when they should start watering. It's probably not as precise of a science as we sometimes make it out to be.

Techniques that mimic Mother Nature in a plant's natural environment are always best practice. And amount of and when to water are easy to imitate, as well as type of medium and/or mount, other than the time involved to do it right with certain plants (like mounts).

Temperature, light, and humidity require more effort, and often more $, than some other requirements... especially when one's environment doesn't match the environment of the plant's native habitat.

[Clawhammer]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

WW ----- you probably worked it out already. But if not --- go to 'customize profile', then 'edit ignore list'. I didn't know about that feature before - until just a moment ago. I used it for the first time just a moment ago, now with just 1 (and probably going to be the only) person on my list.

I gotta say this argument may be the geekiest thing I have ever seen, but I am not complaining, I like a little drama. You two are way too aggressive regarding a minor point about an obscure family of orchids, which is why it makes me chuckle. There has been a mutual lack of respect for each other's experience and for the hard won catalog of knowledge about this family gleaned from years of working with these plants.

SouthPark, I don't understand why you are so aggressive pushing back against advice that has worked for the greatest number of growers for a long time. Isurus79, perhaps the extended dry period isn't necessary for someone who knows their plants and conditions well.

Southpark, I have seen you make no argument (i may have missed it) as to the benefits of early watering versus the risks. I have read that catasetinae roots get "lazy" after they make contact with water and will not be as robust as when they are made to search for water longer. This makes logical sense to me, I water my grass, veggies, and succulents with a similar strategy. More roots = a healthier plant. Please explain your view of the benefits of early watering that make it worth the risk.