Second batch of new orchid frenzy buy--more advice for a noob?

[Zindaginha]

Hi, guys!

This is a loooong post. Sorry! I've decided to not cut anything, hope someone reads through it and has advice for me? Thanks a million if you do!

I have mentioned in other threads that I recently became the proud and completely unprepared parent of a den. reflexitepalum, a sophronitis cernua and an eria pannea.

Well, part of the same impulsive gesture that brought those plants into my life include a purchase of five plants from a different on-line vendor, which just arrived today.

These are:

Two dendrobrium lindleyi

Two dendrobium cucumerina

one ascocentrum pussilum (vanda pusila is what the label says)

The dendros are mounted and well-established on cork. The vanda is sitting in a basket filled with large-ish rocks. All seemed in ok condition to my eyes on unpacking.

I gave all the plants a good soak (5 minutes) on unpacking them, just in case? Hope that was ok was the lindleyi, which seem to already be (semi-)dormant!

The lindleyi are positioned under my hallway skylight, where they will get very bright, indirect light for as many hours as the winter season at this lattitude allows and also not be too warm (I was thinking of moving them in the evening to my sheltered porch. This would give them temps closer to 55 degrees in the evenings). I was planning on watering these once a week during their dormancy. Too much or too little?

The dendro cukes are currently hanging about a foot above and to the side of my light garden, so getting indirect light from a single 123watt T5 in 6500k range. I don't think I want to keep them in this spot. Could I move these to where the lindleyi are? There is certainly room.

The vanda is sitting a little to the side, off from the T5 and I plan on moving it immediately underneath in a couple of days or so. Does that sound right?

Other important details about my enviro:

Light garden: I have carnivorous plants under the T5 that spend much of their day enclosed in terrarium jars, but do get taken out for an hour or so most days for air circulation. The ambient humidity is around 47 degrees, getting up to 50 degrees with the humidifiers I have currently. Is this too low?

The light garden is also about four feet from a long (but not very tall) window with an unobstructed eastern view. But I live in a cloudy place, so intensity of daylight varies quite a bit right now. Also, about four feet away from the T5 set-up, I have a 55 watt HO CFL light, also 6500k, that dangles about five feet above the ground (so maybe two feet above the level of the T5 area) and runs for six hours a day for my succulents and butterworts. The T5 runs 14 hours, starting about 2 hours after sunrise, so plants get some kind of light for 16 hours a day. This area tends to be around 72 degrees in the day, 62-68 degrees at night.

Hallway with skylight: The skylight is about 2'X3'. The hallway has no heating vents so is a little cooler and maybe a little more humid than the light garden. I am in cloudy Oregon, so the days are short and dark.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Hi Zindaginha

First suggestion, I would learn how to care for the plants you have before buying a bunch more. Maybe before buying any more. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for a bunch of frustration.

The humidity readings should be in percent. (If your meter is saying degrees, then your meter has a temperature mode, and you are reading temperature). If you mis-stated, no problem, 47 to 50% is fine for many orchids.

It is hard to say if your light situatiion is enough. Hopefully someone that grows you genera/species can weigh in. My guess is that the light may be low.

[Roberta]

Sounds good for the Den lindleyi. The other name for these is Den aggregatum (some say "aggrevatum" because they can be be reluctant bloomers) They do want a fairly dry dormancy, and a chill at night if possible, and the best light that you can give them. Basically, winter abuse is called for...

I don't think the Den cucumerinums need as much drying out as the Den. lindleyi. I can't advise much on those, having not been successful on a couple of attempts.

Ascocentrum pumilum needs humidity - the light garden should be good. It does want fairly bright light, probably where you are putting your Sophronitis would be good.

Beyond that, observe... you will be tweaking conditions for awhile. I like your choices of plants - variety, but all, I think, are pretty adaptable within the range of conditions that you have. I think you did your homework...

[Zindaginha]

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

Hi Zindaginha

First suggestion, I would learn how to care for the plants you have before buying a bunch more. Maybe before buying any more. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for a bunch of frustration.

The humidity readings should be in percent. (If your meter is saying degrees, then your meter has a temperature mode, and you are reading temperature). If you mis-stated, no problem, 47 to 50% is fine for many orchids.

It is hard to say if your light situatiion is enough. Hopefully someone that grows you genera/species can weigh in. My guess is that the light may be low.

Thanks, Orchid Whisperer--yes, I meant percent, not degrees, for humidity. That is very good news to hear that my room is at an adequate moisture level without any tweaking. You are probably right about the light being a little low, but I will wait and see before considering more changes. And you are definitely right about holding off on purchasing any more orchids till I know how I am able to cope with these! I definitely felt a little over confident from carnivorous plant experience. Hopefully, the learning curve isn't too steep with the eight orchids I have now!

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Roberta

Sounds good for the Den lindleyi. The other name for these is Den aggregatum (some say "aggrevatum" because they can be be reluctant bloomers) They do want a fairly dry dormancy, and a chill at night if possible, and the best light that you can give them. Basically, winter abuse is called for...

I don't think the Den cucumerinums need as much drying out as the Den. lindleyi. I can't advise much on those, having not been successful on a couple of attempts.

Ascocentrum pumilum needs humidity - the light garden should be good. It does want fairly bright light, probably where you are putting your Sophronitis would be good.

Beyond that, observe... you will be tweaking conditions for awhile. I like your choices of plants - variety, but all, I think, are pretty adaptable within the range of conditions that you have. I think you did your homework...

Thanks so much, Roberta! I did choose species that seemed to best match my conditions, but even so there's just so much that seems different from orchid care and other plants that, face to face with the real, live plants, I realize that they are just totally alien to me.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write such thoughtful words of advice. No doubt, if I manage to pull this off, these plants will have you to thank for saving their lives!

And to everyone else who has chimed in: thanks, too!
It is really great to know what I've gotten wrong two days into caring for these little gems--hopefully I can make meaningful adjustments and these first rough days will just be a distant memory for me and the plants because I caught my errors (some of them) in time.

[Roberta]

Zindaginha - I think you nailed it with your discovery that orchids are different than everything else... Orchids have evolved in ecological niches where they didn't have to compete for light and space (trunks and branches of trees) and also where they were safe from herbivores. In a tree there is not a consistent source of water - it rains and then it stops and the sun comes out, so they had to evolve mechanisms and structures to conserve water. They also had to manage on very minimal nutrients - like the organic matter from detritus above them that dissolves in rain. One of the ways in which they manage that is to grow slowly. (A tomato plant may grow a foot (1/3 m) a day, where an orchid may add one growth a year... fertilizer requirement is proportional)

Because of the huge variations in those niches that orchids occupy (side of tree, horizontal branches, shade for those below the canopy and sun for those above, etc) speciation is very complex. But if you look at the detail of the environments in which different orchid species grow, their requirements start to make sense.

[Zindaginha]

Originally Posted by Roberta

Zindaginha - I think you nailed it with your discovery that orchids are different than everything else... Orchids have evolved in ecological niches where they didn't have to compete for light and space (trunks and branches of trees) and also where they were safe from herbivores. In a tree there is not a consistent source of water - it rains and then it stops and the sun comes out, so they had to evolve mechanisms and structures to conserve water. They also had to manage on very minimal nutrients - like the organic matter from detritus above them that dissolves in rain. One of the ways in which they manage that is to grow slowly. (A tomato plant may grow a foot (1/3 m) a day, where an orchid may add one growth a year... fertilizer requirement is proportional)

Because of the huge variations in those niches that orchids occupy (side of tree, horizontal branches, shade for those below the canopy and sun for those above, etc) speciation is very complex. But if you look at the detail of the environments in which different orchid species grow, their requirements start to make sense.

Absolutely! It's a big reason why I'm attracted to them! I grow lithops, carnivores, and Spanish Moss because I am so fascinated by the extreme (purely in my eyes) adaptations. I love the different solutions organisms develop to deal with the challenges they face in the environment: carnivores like orchids evolved in pretty much the same conditions (well, anyway, there are usually orchids where there are carnivores, though obviously not the other way round!), but they employ such different solutions! Sometimes being able to keep such a plant alive and thriving outside of that environment is a matter of luck, but sometimes it requires a lot of effort and observation. Like most people, I killed off a few of the first lithops I got. And then I started to understand them better and they suddenly became super obvious and easy beings to care for (well, there are still challenges here is damp, dark Oregon, of course. I guarantee I haven't killed my last lithops)! Reaching that point (for me, anyway) involved having some really inspiring thoughts about the nature of plants and such. In some ways, this is as much of a reward for "cracking the code" as being able to successfully grow the plants. I look forward to all the new things I will learn from orchids!

[Zindaginha]

One month (three weeks?) update on these orchids, which I purchased from New World Orchids:

I'll try to be brief:

2 Dendrobium lindleyi: my care has not changed for these bark-mounted orchids, at all this month: during the day they live under a skylight, on a wall. At night, I put them in a windowsill, usually in the garage, but sometimes just in my bedroom. This should give them a temp drop of 10-10 degrees F between night and day. Before hanging them in the am, I briefly soak them in RO water.

I was freaked out about winter dormancy, especially when I noticed that the pbulbs filled out from how they were when I got them in the mail, but the gorwer, Kristin, found my alarm funny, telling me that plump psuedobulbs are a sign of health. She also told me that I shouldn't worry about letting these guys have a dry dormancy as long as I'm sure that they are thoroughly dry between waterings,and indeed, the roots sometimes feel papery--almost like they will turn to powder if I rub them. There was some leaf loss--one leaf fell off its psuedobulb, and a couple of leaves withered, while a couple others turned yellow. I also have dropped these guys or otherwise been rough with them while handling them twice a day and have damaged one root on one. But, the roots remain white or white and green, though the tips are clearly not growing. BUT, I have new leaves coming in on both, which makes me fear that I'm not doing dormancy, right. They are getting a LOT of bright, indirect light from my skylight, just limited to 9 hours a day.

2 Dendrobium cucumerinum: These cork-mounted guys spent two weeks hanging on a wall near-ish my grow lights to hanging under the grow light in a green house tent space. These were getting dunked once a day, and now its down to once every three days. I see that one has produced a new leaf, but otherwise these have really not changed in any way that I can tell in this month. I do think that my grow tent might be too humid for them at this time of year--85-95% is what I've had it at for the past week. So, I might move them to my windowsill where I also have another grow light that runs for 13 hours. We'll see.

Ascocentrum pussilum: This came potted with stones, which resulted in two damaging blunders: the first is that I spilled the pebbles and since then have NEVER been able to re-plant the vanda back into the rocks, properly. I kind of hurt it, doing so. On the other hand, I also had this hanging inside a mason jar filled with water on pebbles and, as I was watering nearly every day, the roots that were buried deep in the medium never dried properly, which I didn't notice till I spilled everything. Since then, the plant just rests on top of the pebbles and the rotted parts of the roots, well, rotted off, but the rest of the roots are all quite healthy. I eventually moved this plant quite close to my lights and one bottom leaf has gone a little red and the other leaves have sort of grown apart and in a sloppy fashion, but the color seems good and I have two new leaves coming in, which will eventually let me know if I'm doing well or not. One root was growing, but stopped. I now water this every other day by soaking, it does dry out quickly.

Will post pictures, later.

[estación seca]

You can read my lecture notes from Win Winmaw, who talked about the Shan Plateau in Burma, where Dendrobium lindleyi grows. Use the top menu Search function and search on DVOS and Winmaw.

It grows on evergreen and deciduous trees at higher elevations not far from the equator in a very seasonal monsoon climate. In the summer it's very wet, humid and shady. In the winter the trees drop their leaves and the plants get substantially more sun, for a much longer period of light than most of us can provide in the US. In winter it gets down to nearly freezing at night. Also it doesn't rain there in the winter, but the dew is so heavy the ground is slippery wet every single night. The Den plants are soaking wet all winter.

I suspect trouble flowering it is due to keeping it too warm in winter, and not giving it enough winter light. People look up the climate, see there is no winter rain, and assume the plant is dry all winter. But they don't find the information about the dew.

You could hang the Dendrobium lindleyi outside on a sunny tree so long as it's above freezing. The risk is you would forget it on a night with frost. Next best would be to put it in a sunny window in a room you don't heat, that gets very cool to cold at night, but not freezing. Water it regularly.

Dendrobium cucumerinum comes from an exceptionally hot and dry desert with a long, dry winter. Succulent hobbyists were introduced to it a few years back, and tried to grow it like this. The plants all died quickly. This is a great example of paying attention to microclimates. If you scour the Internet you will find reports of where this grows. It is on the undersides of oak branches hanging over seasonal streams. During the hottest part of the year, summer, it experiences shade, high humidity and is wet much of the time - but fully exposed on the oak bark. After the rain stops in fall, the streams dry up eventually, so for a month or two in midwinter they may not flow. But the plant is still in the shade, and it is not as hot as during the summer - but it is not cold.

Easier-to-grow relatives in this group of Dendrobium, sometimes segregated into the genus Dockrillia, are D. linguiforme, D. toressae and D. wasselii. You can look up my lecture notes from Alan Koch speaking to the Desert Valley Orchid Society on Dockrillias.

Vanda pumila / old name Ascocentrum pumilum needs a huge amount of water, lots of air at the roots, high humidity and high temperatures to be happy. The other (former Ascocentrum, now sunk into Vanda) species also need these but are a little less demanding. The others also prefer a lot more light than miniatum wants. I suspect your plant isn't warm enough to tolerate the root damage from falling out of the basket, and at lower temperatures the medium didn't dry out as fast as it should have. The Vandas with blue flowers tolerate cooler temperatures better. If you don't want a big blue hybrid, look for V. coerulea (bigger plant), V. coerulescens and V. lilacina (small plants.) V. coerulea grows close to Den. lindleyi but at lower elevation, with less winter dew.

[Zindaginha]

Originally Posted by estación seca

You can read my lecture notes from Win Winmaw, who talked about the Shan Plateau in Burma, where Dendrobium lindleyi grows. Use the top menu Search function and search on DVOS and Winmaw.

It grows on evergreen and deciduous trees at higher elevations not far from the equator in a very seasonal monsoon climate. In the summer it's very wet, humid and shady. In the winter the trees drop their leaves and the plants get substantially more sun, for a much longer period of light than most of us can provide in the US. In winter it gets down to nearly freezing at night. Also it doesn't rain there in the winter, but the dew is so heavy the ground is slippery wet every single night. The Den plants are soaking wet all winter.

I suspect trouble flowering it is due to keeping it too warm in winter, and not giving it enough winter light. People look up the climate, see there is no winter rain, and assume the plant is dry all winter. But they don't find the information about the dew.

You could hang the Dendrobium lindleyi outside on a sunny tree so long as it's above freezing. The risk is you would forget it on a night with frost. Next best would be to put it in a sunny window in a room you don't heat, that gets very cool to cold at night, but not freezing. Water it regularly.

Dendrobium cucumerinum comes from an exceptionally hot and dry desert with a long, dry winter. Succulent hobbyists were introduced to it a few years back, and tried to grow it like this. The plants all died quickly. This is a great example of paying attention to microclimates. If you scour the Internet you will find reports of where this grows. It is on the undersides of oak branches hanging over seasonal streams. During the hottest part of the year, summer, it experiences shade, high humidity and is wet much of the time - but fully exposed on the oak bark. After the rain stops in fall, the streams dry up eventually, so for a month or two in midwinter they may not flow. But the plant is still in the shade, and it is not as hot as during the summer - but it is not cold.

Easier-to-grow relatives in this group of Dendrobium, sometimes segregated into the genus Dockrillia, are D. linguiforme, D. toressae and D. wasselii. You can look up my lecture notes from Alan Koch speaking to the Desert Valley Orchid Society on Dockrillias.

Vanda pumila / old name Ascocentrum pumilum needs a huge amount of water, lots of air at the roots, high humidity and high temperatures to be happy. The other (former Ascocentrum, now sunk into Vanda) species also need these but are a little less demanding. The others also prefer a lot more light than miniatum wants. I suspect your plant isn't warm enough to tolerate the root damage from falling out of the basket, and at lower temperatures the medium didn't dry out as fast as it should have. The Vandas with blue flowers tolerate cooler temperatures better. If you don't want a big blue hybrid, look for V. coerulea (bigger plant), V. coerulescens and V. lilacina (small plants.) V. coerulea grows close to Den. lindleyi but at lower elevation, with less winter dew.

THANK YOU for this info! Just what I wanted! If you don't mind, can I give you afew more details on these plants and my care and ask for your input?

D. lindleyi: the grower did provide some good advice that seems to mirror what your description of the natural conditions suggest (and contrasts with things I've read elsewhere on-line). I currently have the plants hanging below a large skylight where they get 9 hours of natural daylight. I could have had them under a light for 13, but thought the sky light's better light quality might be better than a longer photo period. Daytime temps are from 62-72 degrees. After sunset, I put the plants in our unheated garage by a window, where temps are around 15 degrees cooler. Every morning at sunrise I soak the plants in RO for about 2 minutes. The skylight humidity is 40-45%. I have new leaves coming with this treatment for one month, but no noticeable root growth. Is the plant actually dormant? I also have another grow light area that gets 13 hours + a small amount of daylight and is not in a greenhouse. Should I move the D. lindleyi there?

D. cucumerinums: I decided to keep these by the grow light. Right now they are in a small transparent grow tent with some natural sunlight from an eastern window and about 2500 FC from 6500k T5s. The grow tent humidity is currently around 85%. I still water them by soaking for 1-2 minutes every other day. Day temps are 72 degrees, night temps are 61-65 degrees. With this treatment, new leaves that the plants had when they arrived have slowly gotten bigger, but no other changes that I can see and roots seem not to be growing, but are green. Does this sound like happy D. cucumerinum to you?

Ascocenda: Same conditions as the D. cucumerinums but daily soaking and for longer and now the plant is closer to the lights, about 3000 FC, I think. Previously, this plant got less light, was in a jar wtih water for better humidity and its roots were in rocks, so yes, I think it was cold, damp and starved of light so the roots died from the point where they were injured. In spite of this, it did start putting out two new leaves. Now the roots seem healthy and green and leaves look ok. I can send you a picture. I felt like this plant was now happy and had intended to make no changes, but now from what you say I think it may not be so happy. It should be fine in terms of humidity and light, but maybe temperature is still too cold? Also, should I try to repot it or is it ok to be just resting on rocks?

Some changes I have contemplated for D. cucumerinum and ascocenda:

1. I can treat the D. cucumerinum like the d. lindleyi.
2. I can treat the dendros like my sophronitis, which is hanging by an eastern window close to a grow light that runs for 13 hours, but it is not in a greenhouse, so 45% RH instead of 85%.
3. I could set the ascocenda on top of a seedling heat mat (sit the little pot with rocks on a dish on the mat) in the green house.
4. I could move the asconceda to my living room which gets unobstructed southern sun (but it is winter at 43 degrees north by the Pacific, so lots of clouds every day and the sun stays low on the horizon). The living room is warmer, but also just 45% RH.
5. I could make no changes. The D. cucumerinum have changed very little in appearance under my care and the Eria Pannea seems to be growing happily. But it is very true that the other species have suffered some trauma since entering my home. However, they now seem stable and all are exhibiting growth of some sort. But maybe I am being overly optimistic.

Any thoughts?

Again, I really appreciate your detailed response. Knowing something of the microclimates really helps a lot. I will check out your lecture notes right now, in fact.

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

Originally Posted by estación seca

You can read my lecture notes from Win Winmaw, who talked about the Shan Plateau in Burma, where Dendrobium lindleyi grows. Use the top menu Search function and search on DVOS and Winmaw.

It grows on evergreen and deciduous trees at higher elevations not far from the equator in a very seasonal monsoon climate. In the summer it's very wet, humid and shady. In the winter the trees drop their leaves and the plants get substantially more sun, for a much longer period of light than most of us can provide in the US. In winter it gets down to nearly freezing at night. Also it doesn't rain there in the winter, but the dew is so heavy the ground is slippery wet every single night. The Den plants are soaking wet all winter.

I suspect trouble flowering it is due to keeping it too warm in winter, and not giving it enough winter light. People look up the climate, see there is no winter rain, and assume the plant is dry all winter. But they don't find the information about the dew.

You could hang the Dendrobium lindleyi outside on a sunny tree so long as it's above freezing. The risk is you would forget it on a night with frost. Next best would be to put it in a sunny window in a room you don't heat, that gets very cool to cold at night, but not freezing. Water it regularly.

Dendrobium cucumerinum comes from an exceptionally hot and dry desert with a long, dry winter. Succulent hobbyists were introduced to it a few years back, and tried to grow it like this. The plants all died quickly. This is a great example of paying attention to microclimates. If you scour the Internet you will find reports of where this grows. It is on the undersides of oak branches hanging over seasonal streams. During the hottest part of the year, summer, it experiences shade, high humidity and is wet much of the time - but fully exposed on the oak bark. After the rain stops in fall, the streams dry up eventually, so for a month or two in midwinter they may not flow. But the plant is still in the shade, and it is not as hot as during the summer - but it is not cold.

Easier-to-grow relatives in this group of Dendrobium, sometimes segregated into the genus Dockrillia, are D. linguiforme, D. toressae and D. wasselii. You can look up my lecture notes from Alan Koch speaking to the Desert Valley Orchid Society on Dockrillias.

Vanda pumila / old name Ascocentrum pumilum needs a huge amount of water, lots of air at the roots, high humidity and high temperatures to be happy. The other (former Ascocentrum, now sunk into Vanda) species also need these but are a little less demanding. The others also prefer a lot more light than miniatum wants. I suspect your plant isn't warm enough to tolerate the root damage from falling out of the basket, and at lower temperatures the medium didn't dry out as fast as it should have. The Vandas with blue flowers tolerate cooler temperatures better. If you don't want a big blue hybrid, look for V. coerulea (bigger plant), V. coerulescens and V. lilacina (small plants.) V. coerulea grows close to Den. lindleyi but at lower elevation, with less winter dew.

Back for more:

I just read that discussion where you mention Winmaw. Well, I noticed two things: this person's plant was blooking in December (I was thinking maybe February or March for some reason) AND the photos of her plant's psuedobulbs show them to be quite a bit more shriveled than mine. I will say that the plant had somewhat deflated-looking pbulbs when I got it, which then plumped up after I soaked the thing for 30 minutes to revive it from being shipped. This prompted me to worry that I had woken it from dormancy or something so I asked the grower about it and she said it was a good sign, not a bad one, but now I wonder... I have vowed to skip a day of watering, but when I bring the plants up from the garage each morning, they just seem bone dry and they are tiny things mounted on tiny pieces of wood, so I freak out and water them. They ARE getting 40 degree or close to that night-time temps. I don't know...should I switch to watering every other day? If they were cacti or euphorbia, I'd risk it but I worry about those fragile roots drying up into nothing!

[Roberta]

I have found that the advice to dry plants based upon monsoonal habitat needs to be tempered a bit... Even where there is no rain, there is heavy dew, and higher humidity than we have. I also have spent a fair amount of time at Andy's Orchids, and note that most of the deciduous orchids get watered during the winter - but being mounted they dry out very quickly and grow and bloom very well. They do get a winter temperature drop, and that seems to be all they need to bloom. From a practical point of view, I think he knows what's he's doing with something like 3/4 million plants over around 7000 species...