Scared my Phenelopsis are going to die.

[Aeon]

Hello
New to the forum and new to orchid growing. I really need some help. I got 6 beautifully blooming phenelopsis orchids a month ago. Even though they were blooming I was told to re-pot them cause they were in moss, drenched and in very tight pots. I put them in orchid mix with rocks on bottom and some charcoal. They were doing ok for few weeks but I have noticed that the leaves are getting really soft and some of the blooms are dying very quickly. Some say too much water others say not enough. I don't know what to do. I would hate to loose my new babies. The bark is pretty dry so I suspect maybe they are not getting enough water. However one that is done blooming is starting to yellow and another one that is still blooming but loosing flowers is starting to yellow as well. Please help.

[Im Just Saying]

Welcome glad you found us! It sounds like from your description that there is some sort of issue with your roots. So you have already told us a couple of things that can help point to the problem.

1st they were tightly packed in moss. My follow up question is when you re-potted in bark did you soak the bark first overnight? It's difficult for phalaenopsis to go from a moisture retaining medium like sphag moss to one that holds less moisture like bark.

2nd they were in very tight pots. Unlike most plants phals are grown root bound in smaller pots on purpose, this allows for the roots to dry out more quickly which helps to prevent root rot. To tie into this a larger pot = more medium which means more moisture.

If they are not potted in clear pots you may have to pull them out and take a look at the root system again. Sorry for the not so great news, but with that said I've killed a few phals along the road to learning. I'm sure my fellow OB members will offer some additional advice as well. Oh and if you haven't checked it out yet you should read The Phal abuse ends here. it's kind of long but has some great advice.

[Aeon]

Im Just Saying,
Thanks so much I definitely will read the post you recommended. Im sure I will have couple of "dead bodies" before I learn how to care for them. I do have to say Im super excited to learn more.

Not soaking the bark was my first mistake but I didn't know that until I already re-poted. When I took them out of the moss I cut off all the bad roots so the roots should be good. I put them all into clay pots not much bigger than the ones they were in. Is it possible that I planted them too deep? I keep seeing orchids that have roots quite exposed on top of the bark. Mine are all covered up. If thats not good should I take some of the bark off?

[silken]

It sounds like they may just be too dry. I agree with re-potting them soon when they are in soaking tightly packed moss. You could lose all the roots before the blooms even finish! But yes, the bark should be well soaked. Add dry bark to clay pots that breath and I would say the roots are too dry. I like to use a mix of bark and some moss as it keeps things open and airy but also retains moisture a bit better. But yours will be fine as is with a bit of first aid. If the crown of the plants (where the leaves start) is above ground, it will be fine. If it is under the media, its too low and the crown could rot. Once that is determined, soak your pot in some water for a while (1/2 hour) Don't submerge the crown of the plant but as much of the pot and roots as you can. Give them a good drink and let that bark get a bit wet. Then don't water again until it is nearly dry. You can insert a bamboo kebab skewer into the pot near the centre and leave ti there. When you think its time to water, pull it out and see if its damp. If it is dry or nearly dry, its time to water. Otherwise wait and test in a day or two. Over-watering kills more Phals than under-watering. In a few months the bark will start to age and retain water better and then you might find yourself watering less often. In the meantime water when it is dry or very close, regardless of how often that is. Winter homes are usually dry and a clay pot will dry out faster than a plastic one.

[NYCorchidman]

Judging by your pictures, your phals are definitely dehydrated. Now, if the dehydration is caused by too much or too little water is what you need to find out.
Your third picture, was it taken right after your plant was watered or is that how you keep your plant?
You mentioned you placed a rock at the bottom of the pot. How is the drainage? If water drains out well, then I suspect overwatering is the reason for your drying phals.

Most likely, the shock of going from moist moss to bark. In the future, please do not move the blooming phals. If it comes in tight moss, then just loose a little bit, but even doing this can irritate the plant and buds drop might occur.
Then you can just water just a little bit as the moss dries out. once flowers are gone, then repot.

You can still save your plant. Check their roots and if they are in good condition, then repot with some more moisture retaining ingredients like moss or perlite mixed in the bark mix. maybe half and half.
then put the plants back in the pots.

Make sure the potting mix do not become too dry.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Well...unless you are certain of what the root system looks like and can provide photos for how the roots look, it's kinda hard to say whether they are receiving enough water, are over watered, or are grown too dry.

Generally speaking, a dehydrated Phal can show physical signs of dehydration via wrinkling of the leaves and/or roots. However, these are progressive signs of dehydration.

The difficulty in determining whether your plant was dehydrated, over-hydrated, or normal are:

1. I don't know the state of what the roots on your Phals look like.

2. Phals naturally have leaves that droop. They don't stay perky and stiff, particularly the more mature the leaves are, or if the plant grows under lighting conditions that offer just enough light energy to sustain them nominally.

Let me explain the lighting issue...

If the Phal receives barely enough light to sustain it nominally; it compensates for that short coming by growing larger, wider, and/or longer leaves in order to increase the leaf's surface area to catch as much light energy as it possibly can so that it may function.

If the Phal receives the maximum amount of light it can receive without burning the cells to a crisp; it compensates by growing smaller, narrower, and/or shorter leaves. The plant no longer needs to expend the energy to grow larger leaves, because the stronger the lighting it is under, the more it has available to it, and therefore it doesn't need the excess. In this case, the plant is in a state of conservation of energy. Keep in mind, a Phal's leaves aren't the only structures that are photosynthesizing here, the plant's roots are too - and understand that sometimes the amount of photosynthesis the roots perform can be quite considerable, not necessarily nominal. Remember, sometimes an established epiphytical orchid can grow a massive root system that can sometimes be far larger in mass than the stems or leaves of the orchids, therefore increasing the orchids' surface area available for photosynthesis.

A plant's growth habits are generally considered plastic because of this behavior.

Should the Phal grow longer leaves, it has the tendency to naturally droop...

Which brings us to the next topic of discussion - how a Phal naturally looks, as a result of how it naturally grows in the wild...

Most Phals do grow on trees, (with some being lithophytic in nature), but...

As I've stated in the sticky "The Phal abuse ends here.", Phals don't grow upright. They just don't. They grow perpendicularly off their site of attachment or hang pendulously off their perches. Because of this, gravity takes its toll on the leaves, and so the leaves dangle (yes, the leaf tips are actually supposed to point down towards the ground). This is also the very same reason that Phals are notorious for "leaning in their pots". Physiologically speaking, Phals were never meant to be grown upright like a Vanda.

The difficulty in figuring out signs of overwatering just by looking at the leaves is that they can sometimes look nice for quite a while, even after the roots have been damaged extensively over a period of time, before showing signs of waterlogged cells and permanent cell damage/cell death. Sometimes, over watering can show up as signs of dehydration because the roots are so damaged they no longer provide the plant with an adequate amount of water to keep hydrated.

The more commonly seen manifestations of overwatering via leaves, are generally:

Yellowing, watery patches on the leaf surfaces, dropping of the leaves with the portion of the petiole that attaches to the bract being watery or overly moist - (basically, edema in plants).



Note:

The genus name is spelled:

Phalaenopsis

It breaks down into:

Phalaena + opsis = Phalaena is an obsolete/antiquated genus name for moths + looks like

Basically Phalaenopsis roughly translates into "flower that looks like a moth".

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Forgot to mention...

If you have a hybrid Phal that appears to be able to grow upright, it typically genetically contains Doritis in the mix somewhere.

Doritis pulcherrhima to be precise. This is typically a lithophytic orchid that grows upright.

[Bud]

If you could also add your grow zone area and the environment and placement of the plants...is it southfacing windowsill? east? does it have curtained windows or shaded bright light do you provide humidity and air flow? humidity trays? what is the temperature of your area? do you feed it? watering is just not enough plants have to be fed too...

[Aeon]

Wow, you guys are awesome and thank you for all the info. Sorry I have not replied, I have been out of town.
Looks like the un-soaked bark was the issue at least for some of them.

Silken: I took your advice and put them in water for half hour. 4 out of the 6 that had issues seem to have gotten better and their leaves got harder (still not perfect but definitely more stiff and less wrinkly) 2 are still suffering and the leaves are getting softer and more wrinkly. The flowers are all practically dead on the 2 little ones. These are the miniature ones. I also have white phanelopsis with the dark red one in one pot. (pics attached) The white one seems to be doing very well but the red one is not doing so good.

NYCorchidman: The picture is right after I watered them. Im a bit confused as you said "If water drains out well, then I suspect over watering is the reason for your drying phals." Why would they be over watered if they are draining well? Also you say not to move blooming plants out of their moss. This is where Im so confused too. Some say to move them as soon as you get them cause you will loose the roots before you see the flowers die. Then I hear some say its better to lose the flowers but save the roots. Im sure this is a question you all hear a lot and everybody has their opinions but as a new-bee what is the answer? Most of the time when you buy them they are packed tightly in moss and it is usually soaked. So what should you really do?

King of orchid growing: The roots were ok some were yellow and looked not so good so I cut them off I suspect they didn't like the cutting so much and this is why they are losing the blooms. I do know that the bottom leaves dry out and fall off but it seems like all the leaves are not too happy and wrinkly. I left good roots on and cut off the bad ones. I think they get the right amount of light. East window with blinds so the day light comes in but not direct. I do live in Chicago so we get weeks of very strange days as far as sun.

Bud: East window in the bathroom. I have blinds that are tilted to let the light in and a big pine tree in back yard that practically covers the direct sun. I have them placed on trays with rocks so if there is any water after I water it drains into the rock trays and the roots are not touching the water even if there is any draining out. I have not gotten into the feeding yet. I read that you should not feed them when they are blooming.

Attaching pics of the ones that came back and the 2 mini ones that are not reacting to the good watering. Should I cut the flower stems of the ones that are dying to give the plant the energy it needs to be ok? The conundrum at the moment is the white phanelopsis with the dark read one. Both came together in moss I replanted....white seems to be doing ok but the red is not feeling good. Should I cut off the stem with the red flowers? I know that once they wither they don't come back so should I wait for them to drop or should I just cut them off?
Picture one is the white and red together....white doing good, red not so much
Picture 2, one of the mini ones that keeps not feeling so good
Pic 3 improved leaves on pink one and no flower loss
Pic 4 some flower loss but definite improvement on leaves getting harder and not so wrinkly

Sorry if my English is not too proper. It is not my first language. I really appreciate all your help.

[silken]

Glad to hear some of them have made a comeback. The leaves that were very wrinkly may never recover completely but so long as newer growth is firm and it continues to grow, it should be fine.

As far as getting different answers from different people, that is to be expected. There is no black and white in growing orchids (or anything). What works in your environment may not work in another and quite often it is just trial and error that gives you a workable solution. So people off suggestions as to what works for them. If you understand how the plant grows in nature and go from there it is maybe best. Phals grow on trees in tropical rain forests with their roots are completely exposed to frequent rains and humid breezes. So they need to get a good watering, but then be able to dry out fairly quickly which is why over-potting can lead to root rot. The stuff in the centre never dries.

I would cut the spikes on any that are still struggling. It takes a lot of energy to produce and maintain blooms. I too have read not to fertilize while in bloom and also while they are struggling do not over fertilize. Until their roots can handle the fertilizer, it will just burn them.

You could lightly mist any wilting ones but make sure no water collects in the crown as crown rot could happen. I would also suggest getting a rooting hormone such as seaweed or KLN to help stimulate root growth.