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  #1  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:35 AM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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How to help a stressed orchid?
Default How to help a stressed orchid?

Long story short my new Elizabeth Anne Buckleberry looks to have black fungus on one of them. I contacted the seller and he refunded me my money.

So I am going to give it a shot to try and save them. There were three plants in the pot, and one looks very healthy. So much so that to my dismay it looks to be in spike. My dismay because I know what I did probably stressed the plant out and I don't know the consequences. I hope I don't kill my plant.

Question: Is there anything I can do to help reduce stress at this point? I probably overly did it with trying to save my plants.

The healthiest of them all had green roots and I managed to not break any with my repot. If anything I'm hoping THAT one will get through this.

The other two bulbs have brown roots and I did end up breaking some trying to get medium off it.



Attached pictures shows
1. Black Fungus spot on plant first day.
2. Same spot the second day.
3. After I cut it off and after I did the steps below to save it.
4. My healthiest bulb now
5. The other , bulb now.



To try and save my plant I followed Orchid Girl's advice regarding Black Fungus.

1. I separated the three . The sick bulb was part ( growing from ) the healthiest. So I cut them apart.

2. I remove all the medium.

3. I soaked them in 3% Hydrogen Peroxide.

4. I cut off the black fungus and into healthy tissue of the sick one.

The sick one's bulb itself looks to have rot. So I cleaned it off and covered it in cinnamon.

5. I repotted them all separately into new medium and new pots. All is brand new, never used before stuff.

6. I soaked them in water with a small amount of cal-mag, silica and a tiny amount of copper fungicide.

7. I sprinkled cinnamon powder on them.

8. They are in a warm room ( 75 degrees ). Away from my other orchids. Outside we had a cold front so it's too cold. There is a grow light in the room. The room is also a drier ( less humid ) room.

9. The sick plant is in another room.
Attached Thumbnails
How to help a stressed orchid?-72290229_10220575759492817_3973719938580873216_n-jpg   How to help a stressed orchid?-71596599_10220588001358856_4837422734931656704_n-jpg   How to help a stressed orchid?-71402456_10220591577088247_2969052819471990784_n-jpg   How to help a stressed orchid?-71907870_10220591581568359_5613963976078524416_n-jpg   How to help a stressed orchid?-72101545_10220591579648311_8046060190363025408_n-jpg  


Last edited by Cymbaline; 10-07-2019 at 09:38 AM..
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  #2  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:38 AM
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SaraJean SaraJean is offline
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Iím bumping this up so hopefully you can get more replies because I canít say that Iím seeing any major issues in those first two pictures. If it was mine, the extent of my treatment probably would have been to just cut off the leaf since the spot was getting larger and rely on good culture to keep the problem from spreading or reoccurring

Generally, to help a stressed orchid you can keep it warm, what ever is considered warm for that type, good humidity and medium light. I focus on getting some good roots growing that will help the orchid transition and improve. I like to make sure to keep any cut areas dry for about 2 weeks so they can harden off and keep any new infections from entering that cut section. Iíll cut off a leaf if it has an area of concern that is spreading. I just make sure to give it good all around care and try not to overload it with a bunch of new stressors at the same time if itís avoidable (repoting and dividing and several different types of fungal or bacterial treatments all at once). If Iím having any fungal or bacterial problems with a particular orchid I make sure to keep the air movement up to dry out any cuts and kill off spores. With this being three pieces, each with only a single mature bulb, you can try to rehab it but I wouldnít hold out too much hope. Ideally, you want to keep at least three mature bulbs together for divisions.

Can you add some more information though? When you say black fungus are you referring to black rot? How long after you received it did the spot on the leaf develop? You mentioned that middle of the three bulbs was rotting, was it starting to turn black or brown and watery?

Oh, and be careful with the cinnamon. I would stick to just using small amounts on the leaves and bulbs. Itís too drying when it gets on the roots


This is just a general question for anyone that reads this and I am not meaning to hijack this thread in any way ... Can someone help me understand what the point is if a hydrogen peroxide soak for a sick orchid? I have read that itís used to sterilize the root zone when repotting but I have never know it to be very effective at sterilizing organics. Inanimate objects, sure, and maybe some surface bacteria (good or bad) but itís not a systemic and itís pretty short acting. Is this just an old school hold over like Ďdonít fertilize your orchids when in bloomí? Similar to when we used to use H2O2 in surgery for wound care and debridements but donít anymore due to it not really being effective and it increases healing time, yet people still use it at home. Or is there some science behind it?
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Last edited by SaraJean; 10-08-2019 at 09:51 AM..
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:39 PM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
Iím bumping this up so hopefully you can get more replies because I canít say that Iím seeing any major issues in those first two pictures. If it was mine, the extent of my treatment probably would have been to just cut off the leaf since the spot was getting larger and rely on good culture to keep the problem from spreading or reoccurring

Generally, to help a stressed orchid you can keep it warm, what ever is considered warm for that type, good humidity and medium light. I focus on getting some good roots growing that will help the orchid transition and improve. I like to make sure to keep any cut areas dry for about 2 weeks so they can harden off and keep any new infections from entering that cut section. Iíll cut off a leaf if it has an area of concern that is spreading. I just make sure to give it good all around care and try not to overload it with a bunch of new stressors at the same time if itís avoidable (repoting and dividing and several different types of fungal or bacterial treatments all at once). If Iím having any fungal or bacterial problems with a particular orchid I make sure to keep the air movement up to dry out any cuts and kill off spores. With this being three pieces, each with only a single mature bulb, you can try to rehab it but I wouldnít hold out too much hope. Ideally, you want to keep at least three mature bulbs together for divisions.

Can you add some more information though? When you say black fungus are you referring to black rot? How long after you received it did the spot on the leaf develop? You mentioned that middle of the three bulbs was rotting, was it starting to turn black or brown and watery?

Oh, and be careful with the cinnamon. I would stick to just using small amounts on the leaves and bulbs. Itís too drying when it gets on the roots


This is just a general question for anyone that reads this and I am not meaning to hijack this thread in any way ... Can someone help me understand what the point is if a hydrogen peroxide soak for a sick orchid? I have read that itís used to sterilize the root zone when repotting but I have never know it to be very effective at sterilizing organics. Inanimate objects, sure, and maybe some surface bacteria (good or bad) but itís not a systemic and itís pretty short acting. Is this just an old school hold over like Ďdonít fertilize your orchids when in bloomí? Similar to when we used to use H2O2 in surgery for wound care and debridements but donít anymore due to it not really being effective and it increases healing time, yet people still use it at home. Or is there some science behind it?
Thanks SaraJean. I actually may just want to close or delete this thread. I reached out on another forum to ask since I wasn't getting any responses and I was made to feel like an idiot in a way ( maybe just me reading things wrong) but since my money was refunded I figure I didn't do anything too stupid .
I followed the suggestions made by American Orchid Society and the youtuber Orchid Girl. I know Youtube isn't the best place to get info but it was inline with what AOS said too so ..
I'm still learning.

If I end up killing the poor thing ( I don't want to ) it will suck.

The bulb had a crusted over spot, was brown, squishy , and stringy. I don't know you are supposed to do with that but it was attached to the one really healthy looking bulb so I didn't want to chance anything.

Oh and I found when I repotted that the orchid was two individual plants not one , with three bulbs . I read and was told that it should be three together.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:39 PM
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SaraJean SaraJean is offline
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Well, I hope you donít close or delete this! First of all, this is the beginners section. And second of all, many, many, many growers (not just beginners) have these sorts of questions and run into these types of issues with their orchids. I have a little more of a relaxed approach when it comes to my orchids so while I might not think something is a terribly big deal, someone else may have a different experience, or they may have not experienced an issue like that before. And please believe me, I have killed my fair share and am well on my way killing my body weight in orchids Right now I am on my 5th Angraecum didieri, for example... I am determined to grow one of those S.O.Bís. But hey- you kill something, you learn something and we all make some mistakes now and again. I am not saying anything you have done has been ďstupidĒ by any stretch, you have not. You should not feel stupid for asking a question, trying something out, or definitely not for killing an orchid if or when that happens. I consider a stupid mistake to be screwing something up when you know better- like leaving some of your Phals out in 30įF weather (which I have done), or letting a dehydrated dendrobium soak overnight and forgetting about it for 3 days (also guilty, but somehow that one survived), or knowing darn well you should be researching that cool/weird/rare orchid before buying (guilty, many times..), or not taking care of a spider mite infestation right away (again, guilty. And that was a very, very stupid mistake which resulted in me having to toss half of my Catasetum collection). So practice on these little guys and even if yours die, you are in good company with the rest of us and can try again.

Now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymbaline View Post
I followed the suggestions made by American Orchid Society and the youtuber Orchid Girl. I know Youtube isn't the best place to get info but it was inline with what AOS said too
That is why I was wondering if you thought you were dealing with black rot. For true black rot, yeah, that may need a kill it with fire approach and bring out the big guns. Itís very annoying. But not all black fugal or bacterial spots are black rot and this just doesnít look like black rot to me. I could definitely be wrong, but I have had these types of patches develop for a variety of reasons (cultural issues or newly purchased usually) and required nothing more than cutting off the leaf.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymbaline View Post
I'm still learning.
we all are. There are so many different genera and types of orchids. Someone may have mastered a few genera after a decade or so, but still have other types that give them massive headaches. Just join an orchid society and talk to some of the people who have these astounding collections and have been growing orchids for 30+ years. They all have an Achilles heel and will have no problem telling you about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymbaline View Post
The bulb had a crusted over spot, was brown, squishy , and stringy. I don't know you are supposed to do with that but it was attached to the one really healthy looking bulb so I didn't want to chance anything.
The mushy part sounds concerning. Did it look something like this? (See pic bellow) I still donít know why this happens and I have it on a few of my Bulbophyllums... it feels a little soft for a bit, gets a weird scab, and part of the pseudobulb dries out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymbaline View Post
Oh and I found when I repotted that the orchid was two individual plants not one , with three bulbs . I read and was told that it should be three together.
That is crappy and this has happened to me too. Yes, it should definitely be three together. Smaller pieces are much harder to establish and can take a while to do so. But!! You got your money back and you can use this as a learning experience (with bonus practice plants!). Now if I am purchasing a division, especially if itís a Bulbo and/or a vendor I am not familiar with, I will ask if itís all one piece or multiple single or double bulb pieces in one pot. If I get it and they lied then thatís definitely grounds for a refund
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Last edited by SaraJean; 10-08-2019 at 10:47 PM..
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:46 AM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
Well, I hope you donít close or delete this! First of all, this is the beginners section. And second of all, many, many, many growers (not just beginners) have these sorts of questions and run into these types of issues with their orchids.
Thanks for this. If I'm ever back in New Orleans I would love to thank you in person. Maybe some Texas , local Wine or something?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
That is why I was wondering if you thought you were dealing with black rot. For true black rot, yeah, that may need a kill it with fire approach and bring out the big guns. Itís very annoying. But not all black fugal or bacterial spots are black rot and this just doesnít look like black rot to me. I could definitely be wrong, but I have had these types of patches develop for a variety of reasons (cultural issues or newly purchased usually) and required nothing more than cutting off the leaf.
I guess by how fast the black spot was spreading and the way it looked. I know that isn't the best way of determining what it is. However I guess I panicked because I saw this spot growing each day and how dark it was. I couldn't relate it to anything that has happened recently to cause it.







Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
Just join an orchid society and talk to some of the people who have these astounding collections and have been growing orchids for 30+ years. They all have an Achilles heel and will have no problem telling you about it.
I want to . I think I missed this months meeting for the orchid society down here in Austin but next month I should have more time and definitely want to go to one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
The mushy part sounds concerning. Did it look something like this? (See pic bellow) I still donít know why this happens and I have it on a few of my Bulbophyllums... it feels a little soft for a bit, gets a weird scab, and part of the pseudobulb dries out
I attached a picture of the bulb AFTER the fact . Unfortunately I didn't take a picture before. It has cinnamon on the wound to try and keep it dry. Not sure if this is a good idea or not. If not then I'll wash it off. You can kinda of see the bottom of the bulb looks mushy still and the brown that is still on the edges.

I wasn't sure if I should have JUST left it alone but I guess I was thinking about the idea that it being wet may just create more rot and opening it up would allow it to dry .

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraJean View Post
That is crappy and this has happened to me too. Yes, it should definitely be three together. Smaller pieces are much harder to establish and can take a while to do so. But!! You got your money back and you can use this as a learning experience (with bonus practice plants!). Now if I am purchasing a division, especially if itís a Bulbo and/or a vendor I am not familiar with, I will ask if itís all one piece or multiple single or double bulb pieces in one pot. If I get it and they lied then thatís definitely grounds for a refund
Yup and I used the money to buy another Elizabeth from a different seller who shows that all three bulbs are attached to each other. The first one was a bit of an early birthday present because I've been wanting one for a year so I am trying again with a different seller.
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:01 PM
Shadowmagic Shadowmagic is offline
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Hey Cymbaline,
sorry to hear people made you feel bad about asking a question.

It's happened to me too which really made me question the people growing these plants. I started growing them because I love the plants - it confused me that people with the same passion were making beginners feel like this but after thinking about it I have come to the conclusion it is because these people love orchids so much they hate beginners mistreating them.
Well and orchids require quite a bit of attention anyway so travelling to Ibiza for 2 weeks is not the easiest thing which makes orchid growers less social?

Anyway whatever the reason you did nothing wrong - we never really do things with the wrong intention.

Yes 3% hydrogen peroxide is a bit strong but it does kill off all fungus bacteria and rot. I have used 3% and it hasn't killed any of mine. I say better to have used it even if at a bit of a strong dosage than not to have used it.

It was actually one of Missorchidgirls video's on cinnamon that put me off using it. If you look up her video explaining cinnamon she explains why to use it. It acts as a fast drying powder which is why it is used on fresh cuts which can pick up disease while damp - according to her that are the only benefits of cinnamon and if that is the case I'll do without it but every grower has their preferences - as long as you are doing the best you can and learn from the experience that is all we can do really.

ps: incidentally missorchid girl also admits in one of her video's the reason she started youtubing is because she had had enough of all the abuse she was getting on forums.

Last edited by Shadowmagic; 10-09-2019 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:07 AM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmagic View Post
Hey Cymbaline,
sorry to hear people made you feel bad about asking a question.

It's happened to me too which really made me question the people growing these plants. I started growing them because I love the plants - it confused me that people with the same passion were making beginners feel like this but after thinking about it I have come to the conclusion it is because these people love orchids so much they hate beginners mistreating them.
Well and orchids require quite a bit of attention anyway so travelling to Ibiza for 2 weeks is not the easiest thing which makes orchid growers less social?

Anyway whatever the reason you did nothing wrong - we never really do things with the wrong intention.

Yes 3% hydrogen peroxide is a bit strong but it does kill off all fungus bacteria and rot. I have used 3% and it hasn't killed any of mine. I say better to have used it even if at a bit of a strong dosage than not to have used it.

It was actually one of Missorchidgirls video's on cinnamon that put me off using it. If you look up her video explaining cinnamon she explains why to use it. It acts as a fast drying powder which is why it is used on fresh cuts which can pick up disease while damp - according to her that are the only benefits of cinnamon and if that is the case I'll do without it but every grower has their preferences - as long as you are doing the best you can and learn from the experience that is all we can do really.

ps: incidentally missorchid girl also admits in one of her video's the reason she started youtubing is because she had had enough of all the abuse she was getting on forums.
Thanks Shadowmagic for taking the time to respond to me and understanding. I think we all have to start somewhere with learning unless you are in a situation where you are actively being taught.

I washed the cinnamon off the medium so hopefully that helps but I left it on the rot and the cut I made . Not sure how quickly I would / should see the orchid bulbs decline but so far they seem to be doing okay. I've been taking pictures daily so I can see the differences and so far they look the same as the day I got them . Fingers crossed this is a good sign.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:46 AM
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Cymbeline, orchids are relatively slow creatures in the plant world, so never do much of anything quickly - except have an infection go from "zero to sixty" in a few days.

The issue with what you've done is that infections tend to be systemic, while most home remedies are merely topical, so you've done a lot of good work for little gain.

Why not focus your attention on the remaining "good" divisions, and do what you can to nurse them back to health?

Most bulbophyllums thrive in hot, humid environments, so you should work on attaining - or at least approaching - that, at a minimum.

If I may make an editorial comment: Much of Miss Orchid Girl's videos profess bad information. If you search, you'll find a lot of "does my plant have fusarium" posts, for example. Fusarium is nasty, but is pretty uncommon, but one of her videos got a lot of folks fixated on that unnecessarily. If that was what she was doing on forums, I'd expect that others called her out on it. It seems to me that quitting is as much a sign of being closed-minded as much as anything else.

There are many of us here that are pretty serious about orchid growing, want others to get the same level of enjoyment out of growing them, so feel it's appropriate to correct understandings that will do more harm than good. Do we all give that guidance delicately? No, because we're human individuals. If your spouse just yelled at you for leaving the toilet seat up (not me, I'm well trained), your response to someone might be a bit sharp. Don't let it get to you. Think to yourself, "what a jerk..." and then consider the information objectively and see if it makes sense.

Don't forget that each piece of advice may come wrapped in the giver's experience (and they vary all over the map), understanding (also variable), or is just parroting what they've read on he Internet, making it very suspect! Gather it all and evaluate it. Being a lover of plants, you are probably in a good position to do that, but you need to understand how orchids are different than most plants as well, as it is those matters that will trip you up, exactly as it has for those of us that have been growing for years. We were all beginners, once.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:14 AM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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Cymbeline, orchids are relatively slow creatures in the plant world, so never do much of anything quickly - except have an infection go from "zero to sixty" in a few days.

The issue with what you've done is that infections tend to be systemic, while most home remedies are merely topical, so you've done a lot of good work for little gain.
This is one of the reason I cut the sick one off the healthy one. I was concerned about it spreading it's infection to the one really healthy bulb since they were attached. I guess if this wouldn't have spread then for sure it's little gain but how can I know this if I'm up against this again and what should I do ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
Why not focus your attention on the remaining "good" divisions, and do what you can to nurse them back to health?

Most bulbophyllums thrive in hot, humid environments, so you should work on attaining - or at least approaching - that, at a minimum.
Thanks for the advice.

Of course I'm focused on the good divisions. It would be counter productive of me to have done what I did and not be. Everything I did was to protect the one that I saw as being good. I currently have it outside and we have 90% humidity but we are expecting a cold front soon. Maybe some sort of terrarium setup inside our house would work for us taking it inside.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray View Post
If I may make an editorial comment: Much of Miss Orchid Girl's videos profess bad information. If you search, you'll find a lot of "does my plant have fusarium" posts, for example. Fusarium is nasty, but is pretty uncommon, but one of her videos got a lot of folks fixated on that unnecessarily. If that was what she was doing on forums, I'd expect that others called her out on it. It seems to me that quitting is as much a sign of being closed-minded as much as anything else.
I know a lot of Youtube isn't the best option to go to but at the time her advice also lined up with what the American Orchid Society had so it seemed to make sense. But I'll keep in mind to try and get second opinions.


Quote:
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There are many of us here that are pretty serious about orchid growing, want others to get the same level of enjoyment out of growing them, so feel it's appropriate to correct understandings that will do more harm than good. Do we all give that guidance delicately? No, because we're human individuals. If your spouse just yelled at you for leaving the toilet seat up (not me, I'm well trained), your response to someone might be a bit sharp. Don't let it get to you. Think to yourself, "what a jerk..." and then consider the information objectively and see if it makes sense.
Well I'm female . Hence "Cymbaline" and not "Cymbeline" . So leaving the toilet seat up wouldn't be me but I get what are you are saying. Not offended , just trying to make light.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:00 PM
Cymbaline Cymbaline is offline
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OOOHH You are the one I recently purchased KelpMax from.
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