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  #11  
Old 09-16-2019, 07:52 AM
Biggibum Biggibum is offline
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nothing to do with nutrients. Deficiencies can affect old leaves or young leaves.
Different ones affect old or young however that is no deficiency.

One of the plants has no crown left
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2019, 08:26 AM
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nothing to do with nutrients. Deficiencies can affect old leaves or young leaves.
Different ones affect old or young however that is no deficiency.

One of the plants has no crown left
My first thought was that it is unlikely a nutrient deficiency. Most nutrients are quite mobile within plant tissues, so if there is a deficient supply, new growth can take if from old tissue. One of the more significant exceptions is calcium, and a shortfall there tends to result in necrosis with the tissues turning black. I suppose that might have happened first, but you can't tell from the photos.

Now that the coffee is doing its job and I reread the original post, I wonder if it's a toxicity issue, rather than deficiency.

The water is desalinated, but has high dissolved solids, then is passed through carbon, not RO. In my admittedly limited experience with desalination of seawater, it is usually done with RO. If the water had a high TDS, it is either being incompletely desalinated, or something is being added after the fact. Carbon does extremely little dissolved solids removal, its more for organic compounds and chlorine removal.

Can you get a water analysis from your provider?
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  #13  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:16 AM
katrina katrina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggibum View Post
nothing to do with nutrients. Deficiencies can affect old leaves or young leaves.
Different ones affect old or young however that is no deficiency.

One of the plants has no crown left
Which is exactly why I said - "possibly". I didn't claim to be any sort of expert on nutrition but what I do know for certain is that if it were a pest or disease/bacterial type problem it would not be limited to the new leaves only.

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My first thought was that it is unlikely a nutrient deficiency. Most nutrients are quite mobile within plant tissues, so if there is a deficient supply, new growth can take if from old tissue. One of the more significant exceptions is calcium, and a shortfall there tends to result in necrosis with the tissues turning black. I suppose that might have happened first, but you can't tell from the photos.

Now that the coffee is doing its job and I reread the original post, I wonder if it's a toxicity issue, rather than deficiency.

The water is desalinated, but has high dissolved solids, then is passed through carbon, not RO. In my admittedly limited experience with desalination of seawater, it is usually done with RO. If the water had a high TDS, it is either being incompletely desalinated, or something is being added after the fact. Carbon does extremely little dissolved solids removal, its more for organic compounds and chlorine removal.

Can you get a water analysis from your provider?

Ray - I initially thought Ca too but I know that usually makes the new growths black and soft/rotting. ?? Or, at least in my experience that's what has happened. ??

If the issue were salt, don't you think it would've shown up prior to just this set of leaves? Especially since the oldest and longest used medium was sphag...which would've held onto the salt even longer than bark? Not disputing...just trying to understand what could be at play here.
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  #14  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:51 AM
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Ray - I initially thought Ca too but I know that usually makes the new growths black and soft/rotting. ?? Or, at least in my experience that's what has happened. ??
That's my experience as well, but maybe in that environment they die and dry up rapidly????

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If the issue were salt, don't you think it would've shown up prior to just this set of leaves? Especially since the oldest and longest used medium was sphag...which would've held onto the salt even longer than bark? Not disputing...just trying to understand what could be at play here.
Pure speculation until the OP gets an analysis, but if it's not salt, but is very pure, then something is added for flavor or fluoridation, or whatever???
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Old 09-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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But wouldn't toxicity have showed up somewhat in older leaves as well? Instead of just all of a sudden on new leaves? All at the same time? Or are you perhaps saying something has "changed" about the way the water supply is being desalinated or something different added recently? Good catch on the desalinated water. Somehow I just skipped right over that. Lack of coffee wasn't the problem... posting when tired and half asleep, much more likely.

I'm on the FuerteRav needs to get a water report from his provider. I'm no great person to deal with the issues of what that might be, FuerteRay, but Ray sure is.
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:00 PM
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But wouldn't toxicity have showed up somewhat in older leaves as well? Instead of just all of a sudden on new leaves? All at the same time? Or are you perhaps saying something has "changed" about the way the water supply is being desalinated or something different added recently? Good catch on the desalinated water. Somehow I just skipped right over that. Lack of coffee wasn't the problem... posting when tired and half asleep, much more likely.

I'm on the FuerteRav needs to get a water report from his provider. I'm no great person to deal with the issues of what that might be, FuerteRay, but Ray sure is.
When it comes to nutrient uptake - a VERY complex subject - sometimes an excess of something can interfere with the uptake of something else. One example is the accumulation of potassium in plant tissues and potting media that can all but preclude the uptake of calcium - it's simply easier to absorb, so takes the place of the more-important calcium. (This is not my concept, but it was one of the bases for the advent of K-Lite fertilizer.)
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:22 PM
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One other thought, coming in from a different direction. Did you check underneath the leaves? Any signs of spider mites (like silvery stippling of the underside of the leaf surface, or webs)? In one of the photos, the crown is gone so that one isn't going to grow unless it does a new shoot (basal keiki) But it seems like the problem is somewhat "global" so something else is going on. That water analysis will really help - if the high dissolved solids come from sodium (like from sodium chloride) then you'll need to look at getting a better water source (distilled, reverse osmosis, rain) If the high TDS is calcium (calcium bicarbonate) , it's much less harmful.
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:31 PM
Fuerte Rav Fuerte Rav is offline
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My goodness, thanks for all your ideas/thoughts!
I'll start in the morning by inspecting the undersides of the leaves (hadn't thought of that) with a magnifying glass. I hadn't noticed any webbing but who knows.
I'll also take a pic of the info panel on my fertiliser bottle.
And, my biggest challenge in all this, I'll approach the water company to see if I can get an analysis. I don't hold a lot of hope as they are hopelessly inefficient. For 7+ years I have been asking them for a bill or at least details of my usage - all that happens is a payment is taken from my bank account bi-monthly for my supposed usage. (All compounded by the fact that my Spanish is woefully inadequate for more than basics!)
On the subject of RO, I read somewhere that our desalination is done by RO. However, the main's pipes supplying the island are forever bursting just underground so heaven only knows what contaminants are getting in through these leaks. I report 5-10 breaks a week that I spot when out walking my dog, all within a few kilometres!
On reflection the problem with the leaves started around the time we had a reserve water tank installed - I was fed up with the supply being cut every time there was a burst or repair - but I can't see how that could affect the plants.
Rain - not an option here. We are lucky to get 1 or 2 rainy days a year - think Western Sahara desert, the nearest bit of mainland to us!
Once again, thanks so much for all the suggestions, I'll check out each one as best I can and report back.
!Muchas Gracias mis amigos!
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:49 PM
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On reflection the problem with the leaves started around the time we had a reserve water tank installed - I was fed up with the supply being cut every time there was a burst or repair - but I can't see how that could affect the plants.
Rain - not an option here. We are lucky to get 1 or 2 rainy days a year - think Western Sahara desert, the nearest bit of mainland to us!
Question is, what went into that reserve tank? If it was salt-contaminated water, it could have concentrated the problem. If there is a water testing lab around, maybe it would be worth collecting a small jar of that water and paying them to figure out what is in it.

Since it is hot and dry where you are, any chance that you might have an air conditioner? I know they aren't as ubiquitous as they are in the US, but if you have one, the condensate is also pure water (like distilled). But even bottled drinking water (contains some minerals for taste, but still pretty low in solids) would be an improvement - for a big collection would be expensive, but you have only a few plants so shouldn't be that bad.
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  #20  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:11 PM
Fuerte Rav Fuerte Rav is offline
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Thanks Roberta.

The reserve tank filled from our mains supply. The only difference is that now we pull all our water through that tank with our own pump, we are not reliant on mains pressure to deliver into the house.

No AC.
Bottled water an option yes, just a pain to buy/store/carry etc as I have problems with my hands. That's one of the main reasons we installed the carbon filter to make the tap water drinkable. But if that's what it takes .

Just a thought on possible toxicity. If it was bad enough to affect all my Phals, wouldn't it also affect my Vanda? The Vanda gets drenched with it every day!

Last edited by Fuerte Rav; 09-16-2019 at 05:17 PM..
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