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  #11  
Old 03-25-2019, 10:44 PM
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Cattleyas should be fairly sturdy. I think you will be ok.

Cattleya flasks are great for those starting to learn how to deflask.

I don't recommend the practice of keeping seedlings in flask for 1 month if they were sold to you ready to be deflasked. I would recommend 2 weeks at most if you felt you needed to hold them in the flask a bit longer. The reason why is that it increases the odds of getting seedlings damping off in flask and dealing with a bigger mess than if you were on top of it from the beginning. The only caveat to this would be if the agar was relatively intact and the seedlings are not big enough to be deflasked.

Start practicing good habits now so that when the more advanced stuff comes in you will be fundamentally sound enough to handle some of the challenges that may come up.
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2019, 01:38 AM
emmajs243 emmajs243 is offline
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Philip! Thank you so much for sharing!!! SO reassuring! Well somewhat! In the case of this flask I'm a tad worried they were a jumbled mess of agar for too long. I mean.....they are still green after 24 hours....I know this probably doesn't mean too much but I feel like I at least can't be doing everything wrong!

The flask that was suppose to be filled with the largest plants actually had a lot of seedlings with broken off roots and even more very small seedlings....

The flask that had the seedlings deeply covered in the agar (not pictured) looked much smaller from what I could see but actually ended up to be larger overall or at least still had more roots intact for the majority of the flask. This one however had some plants that were completely dead already...i am wondering if due to the agar...it was much easier to work with at least since I felt like I was holding little plants versus these little tiny half plant looking things....it also was filled with some of the cutest fuzzy roots I have ever seen in my life! Some leaves still had some worrisome spots however...I trimmed back all the dead leaves I could or tips and will keep an eye on the couple I tried leaving or couldn't get to.

It is comforting to hear your opinion on Cattleyas being a good flask to start with however! And interesting to hear your feelings about deflasking soon after receiving....I didn't ever even realize they could experience damping off in flask unless the agar was all messed up as was the case with these two...I just figured they would keep on growing happily as long as contamination wasn't a problem.

So, in your opinion...the first two photos of my flasks (narrow bottle with agar actually intact), would you consider this one to fall into the deflask immediately category or would you say doing them this weekend would be ok? They are the final ones still in flask and although primarily all the seedlings are sitting on top, there are some that have slipped down the side and I wasn't not able to get them back on top. I do feel like after the other two flasks, they are large enough to work with...although still small. Currently, I have the flask tilted at an angle to try and keep the seedlings that have slid down the side some away from the glass and getting some amount of room...I was looking at them tonight still a tad apprehensive however after seeing how the other guys were affected by the agar so quickly....

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  #13  
Old 03-26-2019, 02:38 AM
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The seedlings in the flask(s) in the 1st 3 photos are the ones that I think can stay in there until this weekend or a bit longer if you can't get to them then.

The flask(s) in the other photos I would deflask ASAP.

Cattleya seedlings have a much lower rate of damping off in flask. It's not to say that it cannot or will not happen, it most definitely can, but the odds are much lower. It isn't until you get into deflasking more sensitive orchids such as those in the genera Lepanthes or Lepanthopsis for example, or the orchids with the thinner leaves that you will see a far higher degree of damping off in flask if they are kept in the flask for too long.

Seedlings damping off in flask tends to have very little to do with whether or not the agar is jumbled up or not. Although, if the agar is all over the place, it has the ability contribute to the issue a bit more. Again, just because the agar is on the plants doesn't always necessarily mean that the seedling is doomed to damp off in flask. There are other factors at play, mostly to do with gas exchange as well as the relatively high moisture levels in the flask, or even root death/severe root damage.
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2019, 04:08 AM
emmajs243 emmajs243 is offline
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Thank you Philip! Extremely helpful! I did indeed deflask the jumbled flasks already...it wasn't quite as terrifying as expected although now the waiting feels like the most terrifying part...waiting to see how they do and if they will be ok. There homed at about 80% humidity...sometimes higher. So far I have only lifted the lid off and on a couple times for a couple of minutes just when treating with the probiotic I am using on them...Incocur Garden solution...picked it up through Ray.

---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

Thank you Philip! Extremely helpful! I did indeed deflask the jumbled flasks already...it wasn't quite as terrifying as expected although now the waiting feels like the most terrifying part...waiting to see how they do and if they will be ok. I feel like I just brought my newborn home with me for the first time. Every time I do get to sneak a clear peek at them I fInd myself debating "if that one little leaf has a slight yellower tint to it then before"....no idea if I am on to something or just imagining things!

But the little ones are homed at about 80% humidity...sometimes higher. So far I have only lifted the lid off and on a couple times for a couple of minutes just when treating with the probiotic I am using on them...Incocur Garden solution...picked it up through Ray...Just a quick spray and then making sure it all drains or taking them out for a minute to air dry and make sure they don't forever stay drenched and then putting them back in. Unfortunately we have had the winds of hell the past two days which has caused our RH to significantly drop so I don't want to leave the lid open quite as much as I would if we were at our regular 30% higher RH.

Ugh terrifying is the only word for how I now feel...I will see how the other flask is doing this weekend....right now it has strong fuzzy little root tips growing all over the place so they seem quite content! I can definitely do it this weekend or the following and probably even inbetween if needed but I will see how they look this weekend!

Thank you Philip for weighing in! I do greatly appreciate it and feel better with your reassurance!! I just don't want to get too hopeful you know!?
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  #15  
Old 03-27-2019, 12:19 AM
emmajs243 emmajs243 is offline
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Hey guys! So in my remaining flask, one of the larger leaves to a baby has turned black....there also isn't nearly as much condensation. I almost want to put the flask in the greenhouse with the deflasked little tikes to help with humidity....could the black leaf be due to not enough humidity or something else? Should I deflask ASAP do you think??

I will take a photo and send it in. I am at the very least going to move the flask right under a humidifier either way...it's been so windy out humidity has just dropped like never before. I am just descaling and bleaching thenhumidifer out now to ensure it's clean before putting the flask under the mist. Or...if I wipe the flask down would it be ok to set in the mini greenhouse box with the babies you think?? Or should I just deflask?? Ugh! Been so worried about the kids in the box, didn't think I wouldn't need to worry about this one too!

Here is a photo of the ones I deflasked a couple days ago. I divided them up by size...basically has roots in one, zero roots in another. I know the ones without roots and that are so tiny will probably die off quickly but I figured what the heck? I paid for ten plants in each, might as well try. I didn't have the heart to just throw them away or something! I will see how long they last...humidity has been more then enough I feel like so I've only done a light misting once a day to just treat them with the Incocur Garden solution and then right after I've left the lid decently cracked to try and help the excess moisture not just sit on them.

Orchid Whisperer, I did somewhat fiddle with your deflasking method. Due to how low our humidity has plummeted, the deli containers with the lid on just wasn't keeping their humidity very high. Definitely not for more then an hour or two at a time before needing to mist again. So, since I work days and wanted to ensure they weren't going to be dry little husks when I got home, I put the deli containers in a makeshift greenhouse. I was lucky to find a weaved plastic basket with holes throughout the sides that fit perfectly on the tubs edges leaving it securely elevated off the bottom of the tub so I could fill the bottom with warmed RO water with just a little physan to try and keep it bacteria free. Then the tub is sitting on a heat mat To help with the condensation and ensuring no evaporative cooling occurs.

So far they haven't worsened in condition since deflasking at all. It's only been about 48 hours however so I don't know how much of an accomplishment this really is...I'll admit I'm a tad worried about the brown tint near the base of some of the plants..Specifically in the top left container...I know from photos it hasn't worsened since leaving the flask...they just were beginning to become too dry and we're tinier so I didn't do as much trimming as I did on the other flask. I partially wonder if I maybe should take them out and trim them now? I just don't want to disturb them unnecessarily...Opinions anyone??
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  #16  
Old 03-27-2019, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emmajs243 View Post
Hey guys! So in my remaining flask, one of the larger leaves to a baby has turned black....there also isn't nearly as much condensation. I almost want to put the flask in the greenhouse with the deflasked little tikes to help with humidity....could the black leaf be due to not enough humidity or something else? Should I deflask ASAP do you think??
I think what you're seeing is the seedling damping off in flask. This was what I was talking about. You have to deflask immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmajs243 View Post
So far they haven't worsened in condition since deflasking at all. It's only been about 48 hours however so I don't know how much of an accomplishment this really is...
48 hrs is nothing. Give it 1 - 2 months at the very least to see just how much die off you get. You could have high survival rates, or you could end up with large die-offs, or worse yet 100% wipe out. You'll find out over time. If any of them make it to 6 months - 1 yr, they're pretty much gonna stick with you unless there's a significant change in their growing environment that shocks them to the point of no recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmajs243 View Post
I'll admit I'm a tad worried about the brown tint near the base of some of the plants..Specifically in the top left container...
Without a photo it is difficult to tell what you're talking about, but I'd venture to say those would be signs of damping off. Cut back the water/moisture/humidity. You'd be surprised by how dry they can take it if you're not used to seeing it for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emmajs243 View Post
I know from photos it hasn't worsened since leaving the flask...they just were beginning to become too dry and we're tinier so I didn't do as much trimming as I did on the other flask. I partially wonder if I maybe should take them out and trim them now? I just don't want to disturb them unnecessarily...Opinions anyone??
I don't know what you're referring to when you say "trimming". Do you mean culling? I'm on the camp of not culling. Nature will do a wonderful job of that for you. You just have to sit back and wait.
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  #17  
Old 03-27-2019, 04:22 AM
emmajs243 emmajs243 is offline
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Philip! First off, thank you so much for responding quickly! You have been a HUGE help!

And no not culling! I too don't believe in culling! Like you said, nature will do that! I, In NO way, have the heart to give up on a little baby just cause it's tiny! Just a few plants had these almost translucent, beige leaves or sheaths...not sure which...under the rest of their leaves that were clearly not alive or healthy so I snipped these back on the second flask...my intent was to not leave dead tissue in with them to be the source of a bacterial/fungal issue....I hope this was ok! EEK! Now you have me a tad worried! The second flask did have a lot more of these little translucent leaves though. It was also much more covered in agar then the first too. That's why I am a tad shocked they are still with us and haven't worsened at all....

Here is the photo of the flask with the black/dark brown leaf....Once again, so hard taking photos through glass but I did my best! I do feel like your right....That's what I was wondering too so am planning to deflask in a couple of hours after getting a bit more sleep!

I will try to get a good close up of the brown tiny going on in one of the containers however for you to see!

Once again, thank you SO much!
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  #18  
Old 03-27-2019, 07:07 AM
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Emma, so you are using Inocucor GS (10% each of inoculum of Bacillus subtilis, a gut, ruminant, soil and vegetation bacteria, and Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a yeast used in wine, beer, and bread making)? And you are using Physan to kill bacteria?

I am not really sure what the goal is there. Unless I am misunderstanding how you are using these products, I think the Physan would kill the bacteria/yeast that are the active ingredients in the Inocucor. But, if you have a plan, and a reason for using these together, then go for it. FWIW, I don't use either product.

The seedlings you have already deflasked, I would spread out more, goal would be they are near each other but not touching. Some you won't be able to untangle, that is OK. You have a lot of seedlings, you may need a bigger container to spread them out, such as a plastic shoe box, $1.00 each at Dollar stores, such as https://www.dollartree.com/plastic-s...xoCp-QQAvD_BwE. Opaque lid down, clear side up, like a dome. If the lid is on properly, humidity should stay high in the box all day long. The only way I see a humidity drop occurring inside the box is if there is a hole in the box somewhere.

When you spray them, it is OK (better even) if they don't stay wet all day. The goal is to harden the survivors so they can adjust to exposure to the air eventually. They also need to get used to being in a non-sterile environment (not bacteria free). As you say, let nature sort them out, understand you may not be able to save every one of them. As I stated in an earlier post, I just use plain water initially, low in dissolved solids. Again, you may have a different plan, do what seems right to you.
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  #19  
Old 03-27-2019, 08:22 AM
emmajs243 emmajs243 is offline
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Ok so in terms of the Incocur...let's just say it is somewhat of a trial. And no physan! Not directly. The water in the bottom of their mini greenhouse has a very, very small amount added and that's it...Like a tap per gal TOPS. You think when it evaporates the air will kill the Incocur still?? I just didn't like the idea of them sitting in a basket over standing water to keep humidity up in the right range consistently...You can read about its use in plants & orchids...specifically in deflasking more here...

Concentric Ag Garden Solution(R) Plant Probiotic >> First Rays LLC

The shoebox is exactly what I was looking for at the start!!! Then I couldn't find just a plain clear one anymore with a clear lid....didn't even THINK about setting them ON the lid....that's a wonderful idea! I do have more deli containers so I will spread them out a bit that way this morning and pick up some shoe boxes!! I was wondering how close they were suppose to be exactly before any media is added! The little buggers were a tad difficult to get moved around!

Oh And I know right???? I do have a few more then I was expecting too! I was told 10 at a certain size per flask and so that's all I was expecting!

Ya! I figured they shouldn't stay wet, that's why I figured when I most with the Incocur once a day as directed that would be a great time to open them up to the environment. Let them get some air dry time before closing the lid again to not keep everything too soggy!

Alright, I'll get some shoe boxes going on and we should be in business! Hopefully!!! Thank you Orchid Whisperer!!
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:33 AM
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Your most recent photos show the first signs of damping off. I'd recommend deflasking ASAP.

I don't recommend trimming anything on the seedlings. Some of them will remain tangled amongst one another. Leave them tangled. Cutting anything on these plants when they are this small is a guaranteed death sentence. My .
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