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  #1  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:15 AM
epiphyte78 epiphyte78 is offline
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Default A Different Way To Protect The Ghost Orchid

In case anybody is interested, here's my recent blog entry... A Controversial Approach To Protecting Florida's Ghost Orchid

And if you'd love to grow Dendrophylax lindenii (showy) x D. funalis (tolerant) then please vote for Gripp's Ghost on HybridizeThis.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:12 PM
jkt97401 jkt97401 is offline
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Voted!

Last edited by jkt97401; 12-09-2014 at 01:44 PM..
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:45 AM
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Good God! I hope you never succeed in trying to implement this idea. The Ghost Orchid is doing just fine in Florida without people trying to tinker with it...there is still plenty of suitable habitat for this species to grow and thrive. If you want to grow this hybrid in your collection, then so be it, but please don't go trying to put these in the wild and thus destroy our lovely native species. Florida has suffered from a long list of people coming here to try to "improve" things...enough is enough!
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:04 AM
epiphyte78 epiphyte78 is offline
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Prem, you said that herclivation would destroy "your" lovely native species. Yet, you didn't provide any explanation.

How am I supposed to interpret this? Here are a few possibilities...

1. We're supposed to take your word for it
2. You aren't able to explain it
3. You are able to explain it, but you were pressed for time

I'm guessing that the second possibility is the correct one. If you aren't able to explain it...then why not ask some expert to explain it? I'd certainly be interested to hear their expert explanation. Perhaps others would as well.
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Old 12-09-2014, 05:09 AM
epiphyte78 epiphyte78 is offline
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Speaking of expert explanation, I found this relatively recent (Feb 2014) paper on naturally occurring hybrids between Epidendrum species...

Multiple hybridization events, polyploidy and low postmating isolation entangle the evolution of neotropical species of Epidendrum (Orchidaceae)

As is to be expected, it's pretty dense reading. But I think this paragraph is the most relevant regarding the potential value of herclivation...

Quote:
Based on future projection of their ecological niche, and given that conditions suitable for these hybrid zones will exist, the hybrid zones can therefore be seen as a source of raw material for natural adaptive change [61,62]. In this light, the definition of species should better focus on traits that lead to adaptation and conservation efforts should be targeted towards evolutionary processes that generate taxonomic biodiversity instead of preserving the taxonomic entities beyond these processes [63]. Although this strategy cannot be applied to all organisms, it certainly provides a good framework for determining evolutionarily important units [63,64] that are worthy of protection and management in species with complex reticulate scenarios, such as those in the present investigation.
That makes perfect sense to me...and it provides some support for the validity of herclivation as a theory...but, unfortunately, I don't know if I'm capable of translating this paragraph into ordinary English.

Hmmm...actually, in my blog entry I shared one of Deng Xiaoping's favorite sayings...it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white...what matters if it catches mice. This is pretty close to the gist of the paragraph. There should be less focus on labels (species vs hybrids) and more focus on results (traits that confer fitness).
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:14 AM
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These aren't Ghost Orchids being created, it's just mud. The author of the article makes many assumptions that a certain segment wants to believe. But whether or not these assumptions are valid in spite of being unsubstantiated, one thing is crystal clear. Whatever this project creates it won't be Ghost Orchids. The entire premise reminds me of the attitude which has devastated the population of native fish in our waterways. Here in PA we historically have no native trout species, just a single char species with the deceptive name of Brook Trout. Unfortunately wild individuals are extremely wary and difficult to catch. Kind of like Ghost Orchids are difficult to grow. In response to pressures, (many from those who consider themselves fishermen but can't catch these fish on a bet) non native species have been and are continually stocked into our waterways to increase "angler satisfaction. Like breeding an easier to grow "Ghost Orchid" would no doubt increase the grower satisfaction of the author of the article. The way it's turned out, the highly piscivorous nature of Rainbow and Brown Trout has put great pressure on populations of smaller non game species that traditionally the Brookies were top predator in. If you think I'm exaggerating or being harsh, don't get me started on Largemouth Bass. I would simply as anyone who considers this a wise plan to give me examples of instances where the introduction of non native species with the intention of fixing a problem has worked without causing at least as many problems as it solves.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:47 AM
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Grow them for yourself if you want but dont take nothing to plant out into the woods that doesnt belong their. A man made hybrid doesn't belong growing wild in the trees. They are made for greenhouses, Orchid Societies and maybe make some money before one from Taiwan steals your plant material and puts them up on Ebay.
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Old 12-09-2014, 12:05 PM
epiphyte78 epiphyte78 is offline
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Subrosa, so because introduced trout has "devastated the population of native fish"...introduced Dendrophylax hybrids would devastate the native lindenii.

If we think of available microhabitats/niches in Southern Florida as seats on a triple decker bus, then, according to you, the pseudo Ghost Orchid would want to sit exactly where the real Ghost Orchid is sitting. And, for some reason, it will be able to kick the real Ghost Orchid from its seat.

If Dendrophylax funalis was introduced to Florida, do you think it would also want to sit exactly where lindenii is sitting? In Jamaica it sits on the top deck but in Florida it would prefer the bottom deck where lindenii is?

Basically, from your perspective, Florida is a triple decker bus that's completely full. All the seats are taken. Any introduced epiphytic orchid would displace a native epiphytic orchid. It's a zero sum game.

Yet, a single tree in the tropics can have more species of epiphytic orchids growing on it than Florida has in its entire state. I wonder why that is?

Maybe Florida epiphytic orchids really need their elbow room? They somehow poison any other orchid that germinates on their tree? Each species needs an entire triple decker bus to itself?

Your argument is incredibly incoherent...
"These aren't Ghost Orchids being created, it's just mud." Yet, for some reason (that I'm incapable of explaining), despite being entirely different, this "mud" has the same exact microhabitat preferences as the real deal. So introducing this trash will eventually eliminate the treasure. And I'll just conveniently ignore the fact that it would be native pollinators choosing the trash rather than the treasure.
If possible, it would be really great if you could make up your mind. Because...you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Do you want to eat your cake? If so, then here's what you're arguing: The "mud" ISN'T that different and it will compete for the same exact microhabitats and be the preferred choice of the Giant Sphinx moth. So it's likely that this "mud" will crowd out the real Ghost Orchid. If you choose this coherent argument then the hybrid wouldn't be "mud"...it would be indistinguishable from lindenii. But if it's indistinguishable from lindenii then it wouldn't matter if it crowds it out. It would be the same thing as two lindenii seeds germinating right next to each other. Whichever individual had the combination of traits that was the closest match to that exact microhabitat (light, humidity, tree species, etc.) would win.

Or do you want to have your cake? If so, then here's what you're arguing: The "mud" IS that different so it will prefer different microhabitats and will not crowd out the real Ghost Orchid. If you choose this coherent argument then you can still refer to the hybrid as "mud". But it wouldn't pose a danger to lindenii.

So which is it?
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Last edited by epiphyte78; 12-09-2014 at 12:32 PM.. Reason: made the correction that subrosa requested
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Old 12-09-2014, 12:16 PM
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I didn't say introduced trout put pressure on native char, I said they put pressure on non game species that share the Char's habitat. If you're going to disagree, know what you disagree with! While I'm sure the rest of your post is just as erudite, I only have a minute right now. Address the mistake I just pointed out. I have a feeling they're going to start piling up, and you might want to keep up.
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Old 12-09-2014, 12:36 PM
epiphyte78 epiphyte78 is offline
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Subrosa, I fixed it. Please take your time deciding whether you want to eat your cake or have it. And researching the (micro)habitat preferences of lindenii and funalis probably wouldn't hurt either.
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