Probiotics - which to use, how to expand, how to dose and how to store

[DavTom]

Hi all,

I made a search in the forum and I did not find a thread covering all these topics, so I thought to create one. Apologies if there is already one - please re-direct me there.

I live in the Netherlands and here Quantum orchids is not available. Thanks to some suggestions, in particular from Ray regarding EM-1, I have bought an EM-1 bottle of 1 Liter. This is the url Effektive Mikroorganismen - das Ursprungsprodukt | EMIKO Online Shop

I am a newbie to probiotics, so I have started reading a lot on the Internet. But as we all know, on Internet the truth is always mixed with myths... Based on what I have read so far, I have the following questions:

- Is the EM-1 product I bought a good product? It has an EMRO certificate and GMO declaration. The price is 30 Eur for 1 Liter shipping included
- Is it different from the Quantum product? If so what is the difference? Maybe I can compensate for it by adding something else to it?
- Should I use the recommended dose on the label for orchids (my orchids are all in S/H)? The label says 20ml/liter but does not say anything about the frequency of dosing (e.g., once per month?)
- How long can the bottle be stored and at what temperatures? The label says to store it between 8 and 18 degrees Celsius. The expiration date is 1 year with the bottle closed, once opened it says to consume quickly. What does it mean quickly??
- I have read that the EM-1 ready to use (like the one in the bottle I bought) does have a less effective bacterial concentration with respect to the expanded EM1 (i.e., the one expanded and fermented with molasses). Is it true?
- There are tons of websites and videos showing how to expand it. I could not find two different sources stating the same process or ingredients!
- For instance, why is molasses used instead of simple white sugar? Because the molasses contains required minerals? Well, if this is the only reason I could add those minerals myself and use white sugar that is easier to procure and probably much less expensive
- All the molasses are OK? It seems not, but it is still not clear what exact type of molasses should be used as they likely have an effect on the PH.
- I have read that the expanded EM is ready to use when the fermentation has been completed and this can be monitored via PH reading. When the PH drops around 3.5 the expanded solution is ready to use. Is this strictly true?
- The expanded EM1 should be used within a few weeks from preparation. Is it true? And at what temperature should be stored?
- I have also read that you can not expand EM1 from an expanded solution as otherwise, the concentration of the different bacteria would not be anymore in the correct proportion.

Well...I am sure the more I will keep reading the more issues I will find.

Anybody can help me answer all those issues and maybe more?

Many thanks in advance.

Dav

[Shadeflower]

Hi DavTom,
it sounds like a good product but wow is that expensive.
One 30 euro bottle makes 5 x 10 liter buckets of feed.

The product sounds good but they have made their own version which is like 7 times cheaper and an all in one product. Have a look. I would not spend nearly 40 euros for 5 buckets of feed.

Garten- und Bodenaktivator | Garten | EMIKO Online Shop

To put it in perspective my main fertilizer makes 2000 buckets for that price.

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

Hi DavTom,
it sounds like a good product but wow is that expensive.
One 30 euro bottle makes 5 x 10 liter buckets of feed.

The product sounds good but they have made their own version which is like 7 times cheaper and an all in one product. Have a look. I would not spend nearly 40 euros for 5 buckets of feed.

Garten- und Bodenaktivator | Garten | EMIKO Online Shop

To put it in perspective my main fertilizer makes 2000 buckets for that price.

Thanks SF!

I ran into that product sometime ago while searching for em1, but then I forgot it. I will try it when my current bottle will be empty.

Dav

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dekejis

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

Thanks Dana, tempting...
90% of my fair knowledge of plants comes from my planted aquarium hobby (I call it rather an underwater garden as the plants are for me much more important than the fish). I have all that stuff already avaible at home. Sometime ago i also experimented a lot to inject co2 in the tank from sugar/yeast fermentation, so I know the basics there. If I correctly understand it, you ferment all the stuff in a tank with heater and areator and you periodically "harvest" it to feed it to your plants, right? If so, I have one basic question. Do you wait for the fermentation to complete (i.e., all the sugars are transformed) or you do not care and you harvest the solution even if it still contains some sugar?

Dav

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dekejis

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

Thanks Dana, tempting...
90% of my fair knowledge of plants comes from my planted aquarium hobby (I call it rather an underwater garden as the plants are for me much more important than the fish). I have all that stuff already avaible at home. Sometime ago i also experimented a lot to inject co2 in the tank from sugar/yeast fermentation, so I know the basics there. If I correctly understand it, you ferment all the stuff in a tank with heater and areator and you periodically "harvest" it to feed it to your plants, right? If so, I have one basic question. Do you wait for the fermentation to complete (i.e., all the sugars are transformed) or you do not care and you harvest the solution even if it still contains some sugar?

Dav

[Shadeflower]

yes dav it will be like keeping a colony or sour dough bacteria fermenting and alive from what I understand.
Just make sure they always have sugar to keep them alive.

I do not feel feeding sugar is a problem, some people add mloasses to their water on purpose and seedlings grow in sugar water.

Sugar = energy for plants too... I wouldn't bother to feed mine sugar but I do not think there is a downside to having some sugar resudue from the fermenting.

Sorry if I am not informed enough as I do not make these bacteria mixes but sugar imo is fine and safe, no issue there.

[Dekejis]

I vary when I use the mixture. Typically I will let it sit at least overnight and sometimes 48 hours or so. Some of my "tea" amendments can drop pH, which will then slowly rise over the course of 48 hours, so I used to time my waterings to coincide with when the mix would hit that ideal pH window.

One thing to keep in mind as well is that beneficials do more than simply provide protection for the plants. They also expand the root zone's reach, and there is an exchange between microbes and host plants. The bacteria that colonize the rhizosphere and plant surfaces actively produce compounds and nutrients that directly benefit the plant. Some bacteria convert certain amino acids into rooting and growth hormones to that there is more root surface area for them to colonize. Some are nitrogen-fixing and supply the plant with nitrogen pulled from the air (Legumes are famous for this sort of symbiotic relationship, but it works with other plants as well). Some facilitate better phosphorus uptake and utilization. Some bacteria actively work at breaking down base nutrients in the media into bioavailable forms that plants can use (keeping in mind that you won't get nearly as much of this benefit, i don't think, unless you are feeding organically).

My goal is to transition all of my orchids over to leveraging primarily organic nutrients and to focus on feeding the microbiome so that it, in turn, can feed the plants. I've already followed this approach for years with great success in traditional gardening and also to basket-grown cattleyas and I'm going to apply these same lessons learned to my Phragmipediums kept in standard media and also in S/H. I think S/H should lend itself well to this style of growing, and routine flushing should address any concerns about dead bacteria and whatnot accumulating. The well-aereated and constantly moist environment should provide ideal conditions for cultivating aerobic beneficial microbes.
The approach I plan on taking will be to cultivate and supply microbiome along with organic nutrients, amino acids, vitamins, kelp, minerals and humic/fulvic acids.

Agreed with Shadeflower - sugars should be no issue whatsoever when applied to the root zone. They will only further provide for a healthy food source for the microbes colonizing the medium and roots, and the plants themselves can utilize it as well. in fact, this would potentially be of even more benefit during flowering, when plants have a tendency to want to hoard their sugars and stash them in flowers and fruits, often neglecting the feeding of their symbiotic root zone partners - supplementing will keep those populations strong and healthy.

*Edit* a couple other thoughts about adapting what I'm hoping to do into S/H. I am currently growing in heavy-duty seed trays using standard pots and filling the trays with water. i use fresh rain water only for my reservoir, and I keep an air stone in them to keep the water aereated and fresh. For those of you who are using the more standard version of s/h (vase or something with holes drilled) - I would flush through with tea mixture/microbes, let it sit and then dump off as much of the reservoir as possible and then refill the reservoir by either dipping the bottom of the pot in water and letting the reservoir filled from the bottom or pour in water from the top, trying not to wash out the nutrients I just added.
This should get you all the benefits of organics in drain-to-waste in s/h. Anyway - I will be experimenting also with Ray's design for S/H pots as well. I actually have a couple of Ray's Old Skool S/H plastic pots to play with here.

[Dekejis]

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

[Shadeflower]

good points dana, I was wondering about mycorrhizal fungi myself after I discovered if you use the mycorrhizal fungi for fruit trees on blueberries they are ineffective because blueberries use a different mycorrhizal fungi than fruit trees do. I am trying mycorrhizal fungi and I'm seeing no sideeffecs but no benefits yet either. It's early days but I'm not expecting to see it having any effect because just like blueberries have a different strain of fungi, so do orchids.

Frontiers | How Mycorrhizal Associations Influence Orchid Distribution and Population Dynamics | Plant Science

There is no product that replicates the fungi all the different species of orchids use. They store the fungi in their cells to be able to replicate it and even pass it on to their seeds and it would be great to have a product that could colonise a pot fast but the mycorrhizal fungi for trees is I don't think going to do much on orchids.
But I am curious, I would like to think it does something.

[estación seca]

First, I'm not familiar with research on whether these things really work with orchids. I think they work, Ray thinks they work, and a lot of other people think they work, but it's still conjecture until I see some well-run experiments on large subject groups of plants. We know from controlled studies they work with other kinds of plants.

Next, very definitely pay attention to the molasses. Most is sold with sulfur added to prevent bacterial or fungal growth in the container. You don't want sulfured molasses. Remember, a pinch of sulfur in a wine vat is often used to stop the fermentation.

Yes, sugar plus minerals would work as well as molasses. I haven't studied it enough to know which minerals to use.

When brewing a batch to "expand" the product realize the different species of micro-organisms will reproduce at very different rates. The final product will not have the same proportion of micro-organisms as will the product bought on the shelf. The product on the shelf is probably prepared by mixing various amounts of pure single micro-organism cultures into one product in proportion to their concentrations in the monocultures. There is no other way to produce a product with consistent numbers and proportions of multiple micro-organisms.

People serially brew product for very long periods of time, using an aliquot from the previous batch. Some species of micro-organisms are probably absent from batches down the line, due to competition and different rates of growth.

I don't know how long they last. I store my products in the refrigerator.

Finally, using such products is of very minor importance compared to the more important orchid growing factors of proper light, temperature, humidity and watering. These products will not correct for poor growing conditions, though they might make some kinds of disease less likely. A too-cold orchid will not grow much better with probiotics.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by estación seca

First, I'm not familiar with research on whether these things really work with orchids. I think they work, Ray thinks they work, and a lot of other people think they work, but it's still conjecture until I see some well-run experiments on large subject groups of plants...

I like the way you put this.

I was skeptical of KelpMax, but was able to devise an experiment that proved to me that it is a potent product with obvious measurable beneficial effects. For this reason I started using Quantum mid-summer despite my skepticism. Still, it bothers me that I'm not even sure what the specific mechanism of action is or what the actual benefits are supposed to be.

Ray said he observed that probiotics prevented root rot in his collection. I don't see how adding organisms when watering would prevent roots from suffocating when potting media deteriorates. On the other hand, the Quantum Ray sells is a relatively cheap product to experiment with. The only identifiable negative effect is that the smell makes me want to flee my greenhouse. Fortunately, the smell dissipates in a couple hours.

-Keith

[Ray]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Ray said he observed that probiotics prevented root rot in his collection. I don't see how adding organisms when watering would prevent roots from suffocating when potting media deteriorates.

I believe I have said that with the use of probiotics, I have noticed the virtual elimination of rots (in general) in my collection, not specifically root rot. However, one of the reasons I have not seen root rot either is because I grow exclusively in inorganic media that don't decompose.

The only identifiable negative effect is that the smell makes me want to flee my greenhouse. Fortunately, the smell dissipates in a couple hours.

-Keith

Quantum products are bottled under and H2S blanket, which keeps them in a state of "suspended animation" and giving them a long shelf life. That's the rotten egg odor you smell.

As far as the mechanisms of "how they work", I'm sure there are many. The ones I am aware of include:

• Predation of pathogens
• Secretion of antibiotics
• Secretion of auxiins
• Decomposition of nutrient trapped in cellulosic materials
• Nitrogen fixation
• Photosythesis.